Eddie Murray also had over 11,000 AB. Look deeper into the statistics and you'll see that Murray was more of a compiler. He had a mere .287 BA and even more mere .359 OBP, he just played forever.
Rirruto wrote:Eddie Murray has 3200+ hits and 500+ HR. Edgar is nowhere near those plateaus.
Keep in mind: I am not knocking Murray. Murray is a Hall of Fame player. It's just that Martinez was better. I already did the OBP, SLG, and OPS stats, do you want to see them again?
Let me rephrase that. You can't say that Martinez would have been a poor fielder post-1995 because the stats show otherwise. You can't bring him down a notch because of his manager's decision to stick him in the DH slot. Again, he was an above-average fielder.
We can't discredit him for what he might have done in the field post-1995.
Yes we can discredit it because him playing on the field post '95 never happened.
You are looking at the wrong stats. I already explained that RBI is a circumstancial stat. Martinez played in a pitcher's park in his entire career and his stats still came up as this (I'll show them again, because you missed them the first time):
I just look at the stats and they say, "Edgar Martinez is Hall-of-Fame worthy". No more, no less.
Since when is 297 HR and 1198 RBI (through '03) Hall of Fame worthy? Will Clark and Paul O'Neill have very similar numbers to that and I dont see anyone having hotly contested debates over them being HoFers. Why? Because they arent HoFers or HoF worthy.
Bonds +102 +196 +179
Pujols +77 +189 +167
Martinez+86 +106 +151
Thome +68 +135 +151
A. Rodr. +39 +144 +144
Sosa +10 +125 +133
Which stack rather neatly with the rest of the league. All these guys, IMO (If Pujols and A-Rod keep playing for a little more, anyway) are legit sluggers with true HoF potential or locks for the HoF.
LBJackal wrote:1. Edgar didn't pitch, he didn't even step on the field for most of his career. Why are you bringing this up?
2. Whether or not YOU think he's top 50/100/150, or whatever, doens't make him a HOF player. HE DIDN"T PLAY LONG ENOUGH. You don't seem to get that. His BA/OPS are good, but he didn't play long enough to get in with those stats, and to boot he didin't even play a position because he was physically unable to do so. If he had to, he'd have retired long ago, with less than 2000 hits, and nobody even talking about him.
3. Managerial decision? More like, he COULDN'T play 3rd. Why else do you think they moved a good fielder to DH?
You seem to be ignoring the fact that despite a great BA, he only has 2200 hits. A decent OF with these stats might not even make it in, let alone a guy who played a great majority of his games sitting on his ass in the dugout while his teammates were busting their asses on the field. Put down your piece of paper with all those great OPS and BA numbers and realize his HR's, RBI, R, are all well below the standards that most voters go by for HOF induction. 305 HR and 1244 RBI are NOT even close to the standards. Or else Chili Davis would be in the Hall, since he has more Hits, HR, RBI, and R than Edgar. And he played the field for 1186 games..... compared to 591 for Edgar. My point is, neither of thsoe guys should be in the HoF. Even Chili who had better stats almost all the way around the board, and played the field twice as often.
Edgar was a great hitter for a span of about 8 or 9 years. That isn't enough to get him into the Hall.......... and arguing this seems pointless to me. Other than his magical career OPS and BA you have no ground to say he belongs with the greatest of all-time.
1.Somebody said that fielding was extremely important in saving runs. This is simply not true. Pitching is much more important in saving runs. But that's another debate for another time.
2.Right. So Sandy Koufax should be booted out of the Hall? His career started late, it's not his fault for that. He was an unsigned free agent for the Mariners in 1982, and he didn't play until 1987. He wasn't a regular until 1990. He couldn't control his playing time.
3.Regardless, the stats show he was an above-average third basemen. No doubt about it.
4.Chili Davis had nearly 2,000 more at-bats. It's not a fair comparison. Look at the 162-game averages for the two.
5. RBI is a CIRCUMSTANCIAL stat. When is everyone going to realize this? Barry Bonds had 46 HR and only 90 RBI in 2003. Does that make him a bad run producer? No. His team had a terrible offense.
6.Edgar didn't CHOOSE to sit his ass on the bench. It was the manager's decision to do so. Are you going to fault Martinez because of his manager?
7.Yes, his OPS and BA are magic. Houdini and I spawned them from baseball-reference.com.
8. OPS and BA are NOT the only arguments for his induction. Have you even been reading the last four pages? Don't make me type it again, please.
I'll say it one more time:
Our eyes may deceive us, but the stats never lie.