Return to Baseball Leftovers

Thanks for the memories EDGAR!!!!

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby Baseballer02 » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:15 pm

1. Glad we agree on that.
2. Didn't Puckett hit a home run in the 6th or 7th game of the series, that gave the Twins the lead and ended up winning them the game?
3. Edgar couldn't field, he DHed full time. IMO being a DH makes it harder to get into the hall.
4. I know I said Edgar put up better stats, but what I also said was the Puckett won a championship and was a great fielder, which was discussed earlier, however.

I will be honest with you, I don't believe Puckett should be in the HOF, but what I'm trying to get across is that numbers aren't the only thing, but they still are the main concern.

5 and 6: A stolen base ensures that a runner is in scoring position. A walk put a "slow man" in Edgar on first.

Career numbers:

Molitor:1782 runs
Edgar:1203 runs

Molitor:3319 hits
Edgar:2205 hits

Molitor:234 home runs
Edgar:305 home runs

Molitor: 1307 RBIs
Edgar:1244 RBIs


Going along with the 500+ SBs Molitor had, he was a better run producer. Molitor reached a milestone with 3000 hits, what milestone has Edgar reached? None that I can recall.
Baseballer02
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Sweet 16 Survivor
Posts: 1991
(Past Year: -15)
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Pitching from the left side.

Postby biju » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:26 pm

warning: rant

I just needed to add my 2 cents in here, not that anyone needs it. Disclaimer - I'm quite biased because I've been an Edgar fan for many, many years having grown up in the area.

I'm sick of the argument that because a person DHs they are less likely to get into the Hall. How many pitchers in the HOF couldn't muster up a sac fly when they needed to? They obviously have one true talent: being able to manipulate a baseball's movement. Most of those guys can't field either so why aren't they limited.

I guess I just look at it as a coaches decision to place him on the field. He *could* have done it, but that wasn't going to help the team. And don't tell me everyone in the Hall had Gold Glove written across their forehead either because it just isn't true. Maybe they went into the field every inning but that doesn't mean there wasn't a fielder within the organization more worthy. Hell, the NL doesn't have a choice in the matter so if the guy can hit he's going out there somewhere.

thanks for letting me go off for a moment... :-o
biju
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1073
(Past Year: -4)
Joined: 6 Mar 2004
Home Cafe: Football

Postby Fireball Express » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:38 pm

Edgar, Thank You!
Class Act
One of the Best Righthanded Hitters of his time.
Good Luck!!! ;-D
Fireball Express
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2504
(Past Year: -12)
Joined: 17 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Basking in the Sunshine

Postby Pokeyouindaeye » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:44 pm

I will also thank Edgar...


With his retiring, we see the changing of the Guard for the Mariners Franchise....

We will no longer see, much less have the offensive forces of the Buhner-Rodriguez-Griffey-Martinez days, on such a budget minded team.
Yes, I was, uh... I was thinking about ordering the tape, the videotape... about the college girls and the... the wild... the wildness. They're going wild or something? Somebody told me... about going wild.
-Larry David
Pokeyouindaeye
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1844
(Past Year: -8)
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: @ the banana stand.

Postby DK » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:47 pm

Baseballer02 wrote:1. Glad we agree on that.
As am I.

2. Didn't Puckett hit a home run in the 6th or 7th game of the series, that gave the Twins the lead and ended up winning them the game?
Probably. I can't remember off the top of my head. Regardless, it was still one play. One play does not a Hall of Famer make.

3. Edgar couldn't field, he DHed full time. IMO being a DH makes it harder to get into the hall.

Why should it? Should a player be judged on a managerial decision outside of his control? Rey Ordonez fielding:Edgar Martinez hitting as Rey Ordonez hitting:Edgar Martinez fielding. Which one do you want?

4. I know I said Edgar put up better stats, but what I also said was the Puckett won a championship and was a great fielder, which was discussed earlier, however.

Fielding prowess is overrated in this day and age. Again, when push comes to shove, I'd take Ted Williams (no rings, poor fielding, but could flat-out smack the ball) over Kirby any day.

I will be honest with you, I don't believe Puckett should be in the HOF, but what I'm trying to get across is that numbers aren't the only thing, but they still are the main concern.

What else do you have besides the numbers? "Intangibles"? The logical fallacy that is "clutch hitting"?

5 and 6: A stolen base ensures that a runner is in scoring position. A walk put a "slow man" in Edgar on first.

Molitor was one hell of a stolen base man, I'll give you that. But he was naturally faster than Edgar Martinez.

Career numbers:

Molitor:1782 runs
Edgar:1203 runs

Runs Scored are a direct parallel to the park and the offense around a player. In other words, it is a circumstancial stat.

Molitor:3319 hits
Edgar:2205 hits

Molitor also had 4,000 more at-bats, IE a LOWER batting average.

Molitor:234 home runs
Edgar:305 home runs

Got him beat.

Molitor: 1307 RBIs
Edgar:1244 RBIs

Another circumstancial stat.


Going along with the 500+ SBs Molitor had, he was a better run producer. Molitor reached a milestone with 3000 hits, what milestone has Edgar reached? None that I can recall.

A milestone? is that all, really?

I'm not knocking Paul Molitor. Molitor was a hell of a baseball player, and a Hall of Famer in my book. It's just the facts show that Martinez was better.

OBP, SLG, OPS+ (As of 2003):
E. Martinez: .423, .525, 151
P. Molitor: .369, .448, 122

Our eyes may deceive us, but the stats never lie.

DK
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle Eye
Posts: 9077
(Past Year: -456)
Joined: 22 Mar 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: on deck

Postby Baseballer02 » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:58 pm

You're only trying to use the stats Edgar beat Molitor in, and trying to disregard the others. Molitor was a better run producer, run producing is what wins games. Molitor's and Edgar's career averages aren't very far apart, I believe Molitor is .307 in his career, but not sure.

Let me ask you this, do you believe Fred McGriff should be in the HOF? Jeff Bagwell? Jose Canseco?
Baseballer02
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Sweet 16 Survivor
Posts: 1991
(Past Year: -15)
Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Pitching from the left side.

Postby thehat » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:04 am

Terrific hitter. Edgar will be on the HOF ballot in 2009 and will likely spur a great debate.

Personally, I lean to the "no" side, but I'm a hard liner who has disagreed with what I feel has been a lowering of the barometer over the years.

I think Edgar's chances may very well hinge on who he's up against in his first two years on the ballot (I'm quite sure he will not gain entrace in the first year of eligibility).
thehat
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 3707
(Past Year: -14)
Joined: 1 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Fabulous Las Vegas

Postby BobbyRoberto » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:23 am

Being a "run producer" very much depends on the context the batter hits in, the era he plays in, the ballpark he hits in, the people around him in the lineup. I like using the rate stats: AVG/OBP/SGL and OPS for an overall look. Edgar played in over 2000 games so I think his rate stats are useful.

Looking at career OPS, these are the retired players Edgar keeps company with (all Hall of Famers):

CAREER OPS
Stan Musial--.976
Johnny Mize--.959
Edgar Martinez--.948
Mel Ott--.947
Ralph Kiner--.946
Lefty O'Doul--.945
Ty Cobb--.945

That's a great collection of hitters. Of course, Edgar played part of his career in a great hitter's era. On the Baseball Reference web site, they have a stat called Adjusted OPS that takes park effects and league stats into account to normalize the numbers for all players from all eras.

"Adjusted OPS+ is OPS normalized for both the park and the league the player played in."

Using Adjusted OPS, these are the guys around Edgar:

CAREER ADJUSTED OPS
Frank Robinson--154
Ed Delahanty--152
Charlie Keller--152
Edgar Martinez--151
Nap Lajoie--150
Honus Wagner--150
Ralph Kiner--149
Willie McCovey--148
Mike Schmidt--147

Looking at the hitting numbers Edgar has the most control over (Batting Average, On-Base Percentage, and Slugging Percentage), he's right in the middle of some great Hall of Fame players.

He can be knocked for not getting as many at-bats as others but there are other Hall of Famers who had relatively brief careers but still made the Hall (Sandy Koufax, for example, had just 165 career wins) because they were excellent in the time they were in the bigs.
Roger Angell: I was talking with Bob Gibson and I said: 'Are you always this competitive?' He said: 'Oh, I think so. I got a three-year old daughter, and I've played about 500 games of tic-tac-toe with her and she hasn't beat me yet.'
BobbyRoberto
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
CafeholicCafe Writer
Posts: 1256
(Past Year: -13)
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Bothell, Washington

Postby LBJackal » Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:23 am

DK wrote:he could flat-out hit. He couldn't field. If they had stuck him at first base so he could make a bunch of errors for 15 years, would he then be HoF worthy for you?


If he had to play 1B every day would he have been as fresh? Would he have played as often? Would he have lasted this long? Who knows.

And if he was a horrible 1B, then no, I don't think he'd deserve the Hall. Even his stats arent' HoF for an outfielder, let alone a DH. His %'s are good but he's only played 2000 games. 2,200 hits from a guy who might not have played as often or hit as effectively if he actually had to field a position does NOT get him into the Hall. If he had 3 or 4 more seasons of those stats, and fielded a position decently, then yeah, he'd be a HoF'er. But he couldn't field and didn't play long enough to be inducted.

Also, Molitor played in the field (mostly 2B/3B/SS - postions where you need to be good defensively) for 56% of his games. Edgar only played 31% of his games at a real position. Molitor played almost 1000 more games in the field, too 8-o so comparing them is pointless.

Lack of AB's and lack of a real position means Edgar in the Hall is a no-go.
Image

"Jack, will you call me, if you're able?"

"I've got your phone number written, in the back of my Bible."
LBJackal
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 9018
(Past Year: -178)
Joined: 1 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Hotel Yorba

Postby LCBOY » Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:43 am

Edgar was a pretty good 3B. I do not know why he stopped being a 3B. Can a Mariner's fan enlighten us on this issue? If Edgar had stayed at 3B for most of his career he would be a no questions asked HoFer. He would be considered one of the greatest 3B of all time, easily in the top 5 all-time.

As a DH, well... I'd say yes but the HoF voters are a strange bunch...
Last edited by LCBOY on Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
LCBOY
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2653
(Past Year: -185)
Joined: 10 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: On third base trying to steal home.

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 9 guests

cron