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Postby LionsandTigersOhMy » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:06 pm

Well putting Wilson in the argument is invalid because he was not a major part of getting the rings.Rivera was a huge part of all their championships.There really is no debate.Gagne right now is probably the most dominant closer.If your looking at whole career or one game for all the marbles though I will take Rivera anyday!
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Postby tlef316 » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:16 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:
LionsandTigersOhMy wrote:No harm done.And as far as Gagne over Rivera.In 5 or 6 years if Gagne is still doin his thing and has a couple rings to show for it then we will talk.Until then I got to go where the money is and has been for some time.RIVERA!

doing his thing? so 70 some consectuve saves has shown some consistency? Oh, by the way, World Series rings do not make you a better player. If I am not mistaken, Enrique Wilson has 4 rings. He isnt that good. Clemens has more rings than Nolan Ryan, but he sure as hell isnt better than him. (Dont try to argue that one.) Maybe if Gagne played on a team that was as good as the yankees have been instead of the dodgers, we would be talking about how great Gagne is. Oh, tlef, how the $%*& does the all star game count as a meaningful save opp?? I think any game he saved during the regular season is much more important then the freaking all star game. Id like to see your argument for that though.

how do you know that gagne would do well on the yankees? there is a huge diference between holding a 3 run lead against colorado and going 3 scoreless innings against boston in october. until gagne gets to a post season and dominates like rivera(.75 ERA i believe) we have almost nothing to prove that gagne can be a clutch performer. i'll never deny that gagne is a dominating pitcher and i realize that it isnt gagne's fault that LA hasnt gone to the post season. all i know is that gagne had a chance to get the NL(and maybe his own team, since they were in contention) home field in the world series and he blew it.

his streak is very, very impressive, but much of it has come in very unimportant games, and rarely involves him coming in before the 9th, or with runners on base. will gagne perform under big game pressure? obviously, we dont know. but until he does, its totally ignorant to put him ahead of rivera.

who is the better player, an NBA 2 guard who scores 25 ppg in the reg. season. ( ex. paul pierce) or the clutch shooter who demands the ball in the 4th quarter(reggie miller) and hits big shots with the game on the line. i know who im taking on my team
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:24 pm

tlef316 wrote:
CubsFan7724 wrote:
tlef316 wrote:uh, best post season closer of all time. nothing us matters to me or any other yankee fan. id still take him over any closer in the game, including gagne. the game should have been over before a runner reached 2nd, jeter made an effor.

o yeah, he's also throwing 3 pitches now. still mostly cutter, but there is some variety

best postseason closer eh? Lets go to game 7 of 2001 World Series. Wait, was that Mariano Rivera blowing the game? While he is the 2nd best closer, I dont think you can argue with Gagne's consectuive save streak. That numbers RIDICULOUS! Gimme Gagne over Rivera.

wow, 1 blown post season save in 8 years. gagne has had 1 meaningful save op ever and he blew it. (all star game) im not saying gagne isnt great, but its a well know fact that he never comes in for more than 1 inning and has never pitched a meaningful game as a closer.

rivera went 3 innings last year in game 7 vs boston. would gagne have done that? would he even be put in the game?

ill take mariano, every time

You said what I was gonna say basically. Gagne is a great regular season closer but he needs to prove it when it counts. His streak has been helped by getting spoonfed perfect scenarios but it is still impressive. That said, the Dodgers haven't played a meaningful game in years. Here are River's postseason numbers:

61 games
7-1 W-L
96 IP
0.75 ERA
0.75 WHIP
30 saves
77 K
12 BB
8 ER

That is dominant. That is also while coming into games with guys on base, pitching 3 innings, etc.

To whoever says that he has 1 pitch, that was the case up until last year. That even makes it more impressive. Here it is. Come hit it. Now, he has more. That's why his walks are up a bit this year.

I also question whether Ryan was a better pitcher than Clemens. I'll give you that they are both freaks of nature.

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