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Your 2013 MOST VALUABLE Player- Mike Trout

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Re: Your 2013 MOST VALUABLE Player- Mike Trout

Postby GiantsFan14 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:11 pm

lastingsgriller wrote:
J35J wrote:Trout >> Davis
.

I just don't know how you could say this. Davis is on pace for like 60 hr, 140 RBI, 115 runs, and a .300 avg. (sorry if those #s are a little off, I didn't look it up.). And I'm not sure what his ops is, but I'm sure it's astronomical.

The only argument is defense. But, Davis' offensive numbers are so much better that it just doesn't matter.

You could argue steals, but that would be a bad argument because steals are just an added skill to help you score runs and I believe Davis has more runs scores than trout.


Trout has 50 pts of OBP on Davis. Overall he hasn't been much worse offensively and is a SIGNIFICANTLY better fielder and baserunner. The difference between the two is actually quite large with Trout being much more valuable.
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Re: Your 2013 MOST VALUABLE Player- Mike Trout

Postby jorgesca » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:27 pm

I agree last year Trout probably should have won it, but this year, the way Cabrera is outhitting Trout should weight enough to overcome Trout's better BsR and Def numbers. He has lost a step in defense (according to metrics) and he's not playing CF all the time like last year (which is more valuable).

However, Trout's picking things up and if he keeps going like the past month the debate might be a lot closer.

I really like the WAR statistic, but since we have 2 of them with 2 different defensive metrics and a .5-1 error, it's really hard to claim one has been better, when they differ that much. bWAR has Cabrera 6.9 to Trout 6.5, fangraphs has Trout 7.8 to Cabrera 7.4. Both within margin of error and both with different leaders. Then Cabrera is playing 3b to help his team field a better offensive lineup and that's where he gets the most negative points. That is what he is playing so that's ok, what I don't think it's ok it's the weight that's given to BsR and Def in WAR, the way he is outhitting Trout should be enough to overcome Trout's BsR and Def superiority.
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Re: Your 2013 MOST VALUABLE Player- Mike Trout

Postby J35J » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:35 pm

jorgesca wrote:That is what he is playing so that's ok, what I don't think it's ok it's the weight that's given to BsR and Def in WAR, the way he is outhitting Trout should be enough to overcome Trout's BsR and Def superiority.


If you've played baseball at at least high school level or better...or have even watched your favorite MLB teams when they have bad defenders in some years but have great defenders in others you'll then understand how important fielding and even base running are...to the point that if they aren't the equal of hitting then they aren't far behind. I've pitched most my life, up into college, and there is nothing more infuriating than poor defense and nothing more world saving then great defense....i've pitched in front of both. Another example is how awful the Royals defense has been the last decade or more but now this year when they are among the leagues best you can REALLY see how that defense is helping them win games. Defense and Base running is VERY important...the problem is it is harder to tally on paper than say a HR or RBI...but the importance is still very much there.
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Re: Your 2013 MOST VALUABLE Player- Mike Trout

Postby DbacksRback » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:00 pm

J35J wrote:
jorgesca wrote:That is what he is playing so that's ok, what I don't think it's ok it's the weight that's given to BsR and Def in WAR, the way he is outhitting Trout should be enough to overcome Trout's BsR and Def superiority.


If you've played baseball at at least high school level or better...or have even watched your favorite MLB teams when they have bad defenders in some years but have great defenders in others you'll then understand how important fielding and even base running are...to the point that if they aren't the equal of hitting then they aren't far behind. I've pitched most my life, up into college, and there is nothing more infuriating than poor defense and nothing more world saving then great defense....i've pitched in front of both. Another example is how awful the Royals defense has been the last decade or more but now this year when they are among the leagues best you can REALLY see how that defense is helping them win games. Defense and Base running is VERY important...the problem is it is harder to tally on paper than say a HR or RBI...but the importance is still very much there.


I'm with ya. I pitched in college....defense is easily the most overlooked part of baseball, then probably baserunning. Both of which Trout is very stong in.
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Re: Your 2013 MOST VALUABLE Player- Mike Trout

Postby bigh0rt » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:19 pm

DbacksRback wrote:
J35J wrote:
jorgesca wrote:That is what he is playing so that's ok, what I don't think it's ok it's the weight that's given to BsR and Def in WAR, the way he is outhitting Trout should be enough to overcome Trout's BsR and Def superiority.


If you've played baseball at at least high school level or better...or have even watched your favorite MLB teams when they have bad defenders in some years but have great defenders in others you'll then understand how important fielding and even base running are...to the point that if they aren't the equal of hitting then they aren't far behind. I've pitched most my life, up into college, and there is nothing more infuriating than poor defense and nothing more world saving then great defense....i've pitched in front of both. Another example is how awful the Royals defense has been the last decade or more but now this year when they are among the leagues best you can REALLY see how that defense is helping them win games. Defense and Base running is VERY important...the problem is it is harder to tally on paper than say a HR or RBI...but the importance is still very much there.


I'm with ya. I pitched in college....defense is easily the most overlooked part of baseball, then probably base running. Both of which Trout is very strong in.

I don't know that it's necessarily 'overlooked', but without an agreed upon standard way to quantify it, there's a lot of subjectivity that comes into play, and disagreement over both overall value as well as individual value between players and their defensive prowess. I'm still not a very big believer in any specific defensive metric, so I try and look at several to see if they're all suggesting the same thing about a player.

I read an interesting article a few weeks ago by the future father of my children, Jonah Keri, about how Trout is having an even better season in 2013 than he did in 2012 (I think it indicated that Cabrera, believe it or not, was as well), which is saying quite a bit.
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Re: Your 2013 MOST VALUABLE Player- Mike Trout

Postby kab21 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:48 pm

J35J wrote:
jorgesca wrote:That is what he is playing so that's ok, what I don't think it's ok it's the weight that's given to BsR and Def in WAR, the way he is outhitting Trout should be enough to overcome Trout's BsR and Def superiority.


If you've played baseball at at least high school level or better...or have even watched your favorite MLB teams when they have bad defenders in some years but have great defenders in others you'll then understand how important fielding and even base running are...to the point that if they aren't the equal of hitting then they aren't far behind. I've pitched most my life, up into college, and there is nothing more infuriating than poor defense and nothing more world saving then great defense....i've pitched in front of both. Another example is how awful the Royals defense has been the last decade or more but now this year when they are among the leagues best you can REALLY see how that defense is helping them win games. Defense and Base running is VERY important...the problem is it is harder to tally on paper than say a HR or RBI...but the importance is still very much there.


Despite all of this fangraphs has MCab and Trout about even in WAR. And I think they weigh defense a little too much.

At the end of the day both of these guys (and also Davis) are having incredible seasons. MCab is also having the best season of his career which is incredible by itself.

Additionally I have no problem giving the award to a player on a losing team but I do give some consideration to winning teams and the importance of a player to a team.
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Re: Your 2013 MOST VALUABLE Player- Mike Trout

Postby jorgesca » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:03 am

Yeah I agree with all of you on the importance of defense and how it is overlooked by regular fans, but I'm not talking about regular fans here, I'm talking about the people that created fWAR and to a lesser extent bWAR. I actually like fWAR better, but about a week ago, Trout was ahead of Cabrera by about a run, that was just, IMO, an exaggerated amount of "value" given to Trout's BsR and Def to overcome Cabrera's hitting.
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