Return to Baseball Leftovers

Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby MashinSpuds » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:05 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:for the Yankees this is huge.
ARod could already be gone for the year regardless.
Granderson is injured now, but not expected to miss too much time.
Cano. ouch, he's the best Yankees player right now.

About 4 years ago, Red Sox fans would have a field day with this information and the possible outcome (whether valid or not). As it stands, we're snickering in a corner but trying not to be too loud about it. Crossing fingers hoping that Ortiz is not involved anyway...
MashinSpuds
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerEagle EyeCafecaster
Posts: 2544
(Past Year: 6)
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Boston

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby AHF » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:32 pm

jcook3127 wrote:What kills me is the way they crucify these guys...

For instance, who in their right mind is doubting that Ty Cobb would've juiced his ass off if he played in this era? Crickets, and rightfully so.

The other thing that gets me is the idea that these guys would not be the cream of the crop had they not juiced. This one is just ridiculous. If anybody thinks that Bonds, Manny, A-Rod, Clemens, etc. wouldn't be among the elite players in any era they are just fooling themselves...

Did a few dozen doubles turn into homers? Yes. When you account for outfield fence variability, that factor is even further minimized. Did it help guys stay on the field and recover? Yes. Both of those, from a marketing stand point, profitability stand point, and fan enjoyment stand point were extremely beneficial to Major League Baseball. Are PED's the difference between a good or bad baseball player? Absolutely Not. Case in point: Alex Sanchez, the first guy busted.


Anybody who thinks Bonds would be the career leader in HRs without steroids is out of their mind. What Bonds did in his clean prime versus what he did dirty is as different as his body type in those eras.

It isn't a coincidence that Bonds, Mac and Sosa almost simultaneously put up the greatest HR Seasons in major league history while they were juicing rampantly.

The PEDs make the difference between a good player and a great player; a HOF and a legend. It is a big difference, very material difference. It isn't like I can juice and be a major league player and it isn't like Sosa wouldn't have been in the major leagues without steroids but he sure wouldn't have been in the MVP discussion. So not everyone who juices will be great, but anyone who juices will be better.

Barry Bonds, Ben Johnson, etc. make this clear that you can go from elite to legendary by using.

Braun's team was able to recreate a false positive test by not storing a sample at the proper temperature. There was an Olympic athlete that got a false positive the exact same way and beat it the exact same way.


That is really interesting. I am not going to pay to read Carroll's report but I would sure like to read the arbitrator's decision some day and see where this came in. That is an argument on the merits, IMO.
AHF
College Coach
College Coach

User avatar

Posts: 233
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby thedude » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:50 pm

SpecialFNK wrote:not really a credible source. the guy had Melky last year, but that's not a reach to have predicated that. other than Melky, has he reported anything? had he not been right about Melky last year, this news would be absolutely nothing.


He is less credible than say, ESPN or the New York Times, because he does not have the benefit of a large journalistic network backing him up, so I will take everything he says with a grain of salt. It is entirely possible that he is drinking buddies with someone in the MLB league office or the test facility. I guess what I am saying is that I would not be shocked if this story is 100% true or 100% false.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8014
(Past Year: -397)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby thedude » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:53 pm

GiantsFan14 wrote:
rjforlife wrote:I hear that if you are on the DL, that doesn't count for your suspended games, the Yanks would have to carry Arod/Cano/Granderson all on their 40 man roster to effectively eliminate the suspensions by game 51. If Granderson is on the DL, he'd have to serve an additional 50 games once he comes off the DL. This is only what I heard, I cannot substantiate it.


Ya, that's incorrect. Days on the DL count toward your suspension.


Is that true for the 60 day DL? Players on the 60 day DL do not count as on the active roster. A-Rod is on the 60 day DL, whereas Granderson is on the 15 day DL.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8014
(Past Year: -397)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby daullaz » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:55 pm

Heard today from someone who actually does this stuff for a living that the report is BS and to just ignore it. I wouldn't even bother wasting any more time on it.
Image
daullaz
Head Scribe
Head Scribe

EditorCafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe MusketeerPick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 4242
(Past Year: -627)
Joined: 17 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Babel

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby GiantsFan14 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:56 pm

thedude wrote:
GiantsFan14 wrote:
rjforlife wrote:I hear that if you are on the DL, that doesn't count for your suspended games, the Yanks would have to carry Arod/Cano/Granderson all on their 40 man roster to effectively eliminate the suspensions by game 51. If Granderson is on the DL, he'd have to serve an additional 50 games once he comes off the DL. This is only what I heard, I cannot substantiate it.


Ya, that's incorrect. Days on the DL count toward your suspension.


Is that true for the 60 day DL? Players on the 60 day DL do not count as on the active roster. A-Rod is on the 60 day DL, whereas Granderson is on the 15 day DL.


Yup.
Image
25
GiantsFan14
Baseball Scribe
Baseball Scribe

User avatar
EditorCafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 13820
(Past Year: -57)
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: BUSTER HATH ARRIVED

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby GiantsFan14 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:58 pm

daullaz wrote:Heard today from someone who actually does this stuff for a living that the report is BS and to just ignore it. I wouldn't even bother wasting any more time on it.


If nobody heard about Melky's suspension other than this guy, why is it not possible the same thing happened this time? Wouldn't anyone without this guy's supposed source think that it was BS?
Last edited by GiantsFan14 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
25
GiantsFan14
Baseball Scribe
Baseball Scribe

User avatar
EditorCafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 13820
(Past Year: -57)
Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: BUSTER HATH ARRIVED

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby mweir145 » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:44 pm

AHF wrote:Anybody who thinks Bonds would be the career leader in HRs without steroids is out of their mind. What Bonds did in his clean prime versus what he did dirty is as different as his body type in those eras.

You don't know that. In fact, you don't know what exactly he used, the effects of the PEDs he used, or even when he started using. So to even begin to try to presume the difference between a "clean Bonds" and a "dirty Bonds" is a ridiculous premise to begin with. There is far too much information that we don't have about the situation.

All we know is what Bonds did on the field (against competition that was apparently using the same methods he was to get ahead). And what he did on the field was historic, a level of dominance in the sport that wasn't seen before and that may never be seen again. He was just that much better than everyone else.

It isn't a coincidence that Bonds, Mac and Sosa almost simultaneously put up the greatest HR Seasons in major league history while they were juicing rampantly.

You don't know that. There are many possible explanations for the increase in power around baseball in those years (juiced baseballs, smaller ballparks, expansion era, etc.) and they obviously don't all involve PED use.


The PEDs make the difference between a good player and a great player; a HOF and a legend. It is a big difference, very material difference. It isn't like I can juice and be a major league player and it isn't like Sosa wouldn't have been in the major leagues without steroids but he sure wouldn't have been in the MVP discussion. So not everyone who juices will be great, but anyone who juices will be better.

You don't know that. If you did, you'd be able to tell me the exact effects of every PED on the baseball statistics of every player. And you'd also be able to assure me that the effects of those PEDs are consistently the same for every player. But, of course, nobody can do that because nobody knows (and yet overbroad, unprovable statements like yours continue to persist).

Barry Bonds, Ben Johnson, etc. make this clear that you can go from elite to legendary by using.

You don't know that. There's very little that's clear about PEDs and their effects on athletic performance. It can be presumed that it helps them because of the persistent use of such drugs in athletics over the last half century, but the extent of that help is impossible to know.
25
mweir145
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Eagle Eye
Posts: 16464
(Past Year: -320)
Joined: 3 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Toronto

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby AHF » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:54 pm

Let's just say I don't believe in the tooth fairy any more than the legitimacy of the drug aided numbers and that we have seen over and over steroids having huge impacts on athletic performance even if the exact %s are based on a lot more variables than simply the amount and kind of drug being taken and therefore can't be predicted perfectly.

(BTW - Bonds admitted taking steroids as part of his criminal defense so we do know he took them. By making this admission, he stopped the prosecutors from impeaching him by showing mere steroid use and they were forced to prove that he 'knowingly' used steroids. It was a good legal argument that got him a lot of mileage in the case since the jury stated afterwards that they all concluded he used steroids but didn't think that the prosecution had shown that he 'knowingly' used them beyond a reasonable doubt...a position aided by his refusal to testify and his drug pusher/trainer's extended jail stay as a result of his refusal to nail Bonds with his testimony. So great legal defense, but it also removes his ability to deny that he used steroids.)
AHF
College Coach
College Coach

User avatar

Posts: 233
(Past Year: 4)
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Source: Cano, A-Rod, Braun, Granderson to be suspended

Postby thedude » Tue Mar 05, 2013 6:40 pm

mweir145 wrote:
It isn't a coincidence that Bonds, Mac and Sosa almost simultaneously put up the greatest HR Seasons in major league history while they were juicing rampantly.

You don't know that. There are many possible explanations for the increase in power around baseball in those years (juiced baseballs, smaller ballparks, expansion era, etc.) and they obviously don't all involve PED use.


I have a bridge that I would love to sell you...
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8014
(Past Year: -397)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 127 guests

cron