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New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:41 pm

Lofunzo wrote:As much as I would like to see him gone at this point, I don't see any way how he can go from zero failed tests to a lifetime ban, no matter how damning the evidence is against him.


Me neither. I can see 150 games possibly but I'd be stunned with a ban.
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby SecretAgentMan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:51 pm

Lofunzo wrote:As much as I would like to see him gone at this point, I don't see any way how he can go from zero failed tests to a lifetime ban, no matter how damning the evidence is against him.


First off, he has already admitted to cheating in the past albeit before the penalties were in place.

Secondly, the same way Pete Rose got banned can be applied. He not only got busted for PEDs, but supposedly tried to buy the evidence against him and otherwise interferred with the investigation in what could be interpretted as a criminal act. Call it conduct detrimental to the game, obstruction of justice, attempted bribery, etc. as taking roids or whatever he was using without a prescription is a crime and any attempt to pay others to cover that up is obstruction and attempted bribery at the very least and contrary to the best interests of the game and the intent of the agreement on PEDs between the players and the owners. Of course this is not a criminal court, but Rose was banned for doing something legal but against the highest of baseball's by-laws effectively and then lying about it. It is not a stretch to view this as equally as bad imo. We shall see if the commish has the evidence to go this route and make it stick.
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby Lofunzo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:09 pm

SecretAgentMan wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:As much as I would like to see him gone at this point, I don't see any way how he can go from zero failed tests to a lifetime ban, no matter how damning the evidence is against him.


First off, he has already admitted to cheating in the past albeit before the penalties were in place.

Secondly, the same way Pete Rose got banned can be applied. He not only got busted for PEDs, but supposedly tried to buy the evidence against him and otherwise interferred with the investigation in what could be interpretted as a criminal act. Call it conduct detrimental to the game, obstruction of justice, attempted bribery, etc. as taking roids or whatever he was using without a prescription is a crime and any attempt to pay others to cover that up is obstruction and attempted bribery at the very least and contrary to the best interests of the game and the intent of the agreement on PEDs between the players and the owners. Of course this is not a criminal court, but Rose was banned for doing something legal but against the highest of baseball's by-laws effectively and then lying about it. It is not a stretch to view this as equally as bad imo. We shall see if the commish has the evidence to go this route and make it stick.


Even with everything that you said, I don't see how he goes from no punishment before this all came down to a lifetime ban. Sure, he admitted to prior use. That didn't matter as far as punishment before so I don't see how that would escalate this to permanent banishment.

I'd like to avoid comparisons to the Pete Rose incident because I see them as completely different.
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby bigh0rt » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:14 pm

They said on ESPN (maybe speculatively) that the MLB felt they had enough evidence on Braun to warrant two separate offenses, which is why they negotiated a remainder of the season suspension to "call it even". If there's enough evidence ("reams and reams" of it as per ESPN) to link A-Rod to several "offenses", I suppose its possible. I would be surprised to see it, but there's also a small part of me that I don't think would. I'm very interested to see how it all plays out. Probably more interested than I've ever been on the subject. I've never had a real strong feeling one way or another, and really still don't, but my interest is certainly being held.
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby kab21 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:16 am

Lofunzo wrote:
Even with everything that you said, I don't see how he goes from no punishment before this all came down to a lifetime ban. Sure, he admitted to prior use. That didn't matter as far as punishment before so I don't see how that would escalate this to permanent banishment.

I'd like to avoid comparisons to the Pete Rose incident because I see them as completely different.


I consider tampering with evidence (and I'm assuming an attempt to destroy it) to be a gigantic offense even if it doesn't go to criminal court. Worthy of a lifetime ban for similar reasons that Rose or the Black Sox received lifetime bans.
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby thedude » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:58 am

kab21 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
Even with everything that you said, I don't see how he goes from no punishment before this all came down to a lifetime ban. Sure, he admitted to prior use. That didn't matter as far as punishment before so I don't see how that would escalate this to permanent banishment.

I'd like to avoid comparisons to the Pete Rose incident because I see them as completely different.


I consider tampering with evidence (and I'm assuming an attempt to destroy it) to be a gigantic offense even if it doesn't go to criminal court. Worthy of a lifetime ban for similar reasons that Rose or the Black Sox received lifetime bans.


Very different reasons. The lifetime band for gambling are handed out because those offenses threatened undermined the public confidence that the outcome of games was legitimate and not the product of players or a manager attempting to lose.

Suspensions for tampering with evidence serve are handed out because the actions of the player hindered an investigation into an other offense. These suspensions are severe because it makes the investigation into the underlying offense difficult but has nothing to do with public confidence in the integrity of the sport. It is the underlying offense that undermines public confidence (and that underlying offense is not nearly as destructive as gambling/fixing games).
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby kab21 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:00 pm

thedude wrote:
Very different reasons. The lifetime band for gambling are handed out because those offenses threatened undermined the public confidence that the outcome of games was legitimate and not the product of players or a manager attempting to lose.

Suspensions for tampering with evidence serve are handed out because the actions of the player hindered an investigation into an other offense. These suspensions are severe because it makes the investigation into the underlying offense difficult but has nothing to do with public confidence in the integrity of the sport. It is the underlying offense that undermines public confidence (and that underlying offense is not nearly as destructive as gambling/fixing games).


Of course they are different reasons but I think this reason is serious enough for the entire book to be thrown at him. I guess we differ on exactly how serious tampering with evidence is.
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby thedude » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:36 pm

kab21 wrote:
thedude wrote:
Very different reasons. The lifetime band for gambling are handed out because those offenses threatened undermined the public confidence that the outcome of games was legitimate and not the product of players or a manager attempting to lose.

Suspensions for tampering with evidence serve are handed out because the actions of the player hindered an investigation into an other offense. These suspensions are severe because it makes the investigation into the underlying offense difficult but has nothing to do with public confidence in the integrity of the sport. It is the underlying offense that undermines public confidence (and that underlying offense is not nearly as destructive as gambling/fixing games).


Of course they are different reasons but I think this reason is serious enough for the entire book to be thrown at him. I guess we differ on exactly how serious tampering with evidence is.


I think it is very serious. I just believe that fixing games/coverting with gamblers is more dangerous to the sport. Game fixing nearly killed the sport after the White Sox scandal, and the 1877 Louisville Grays scandal. Joe Jackson and Jim Devlin were properly banned for life because they fixed games and cost their teams the World Series for the former and the pennant for the latter. Tampering with evidence is reprehensible, but it is not nearly as damaging to the game.
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby jackie hayes » Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:48 pm

ARod's own doctor told WFAN that there was no quad strain. (H/t rotoworld.) So just when you thought that situation couldn't get any uglier...
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Re: New Steroid Reports - gio gonzalez, nelson cruz

Postby SecretAgentMan » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:43 pm

jackie hayes wrote:ARod's own doctor told WFAN that there was no quad strain. (H/t rotoworld.) So just when you thought that situation couldn't get any uglier...


Read this about that doc:

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/ ... er=ya5nbcs

Arod apparently may not only have gone to a doc that did not review the results, but went to a roids doctor (though there is some debate as to if it is the same guy).

"Gross’s own bio states that he’s “he is currently enrolled in a fellowship in anti-aging and restorative medicine and is working towards board certification form the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine.” And the New York Daily News is now reporting that Gross was reprimanded by the New Jersey Attorney General earlier this year for “failing to adequately ensure proper patience treatment involving the prescribing of hormones, including steroids.”"
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