The Artful Dodger wrote:You listed one type of job that can be certified (no degree) and I'll toss in another quality assurance (QA) certification.
For most jobs, a college degree is still a gateway degree. In a lot of cases, it doesn't matter what you study but the fact you have a degree which makes all the difference. One of my best friends and former colleagues graduated with a political science degree, but since he graduated, he's been a software engineer since then.
I don't disagree that having a degree is beneficial, we just disagree on "how" beneficial it really is.
Except that the college experience is quite a different beast from school. Yes, you get bored in college from time to time, and who doesn't. However, you're also going some ways in not just acquiring/improving abilities and skills, but also improving as a person. There's important life skills to be acquired in work, no question. That shouldn't take away from life skills learned in college anyway.
I'm not likely to change your tune about college and that's fine, I don't mean to. I would say I was actually as skeptical about school and college as you, in that I knew I was better off learning things on my own. However, I saw value and merit in staying in school, going to college too. So, when it comes down to it, I would endorse most teenagers to attend college. It's a boring, conventional route, but in general, it's usually the best route for them to take.
What exactly is improving as a person and life skills that are learned only at college?
No worries, if my opinion on college was going to change, it would have done so by now. I don't really have a bunch of negativity about college, I just didn't/don't see the need to attend classes and waste another 4 years of my life when the "payoff" really isn't anything. In hindsight, I doubt a degree would have affected me at all. I likely wouldn't have an ex-wife since I wouldn't have gotten married while attending college, but that has nothing to do with a degree.
As an employer, I would pay more attention to someone who has built something impressive, actually. A college degree is still a consideration for me, more so than a trade school. I've addressed this a few pages back and I said it depends on the field and expertise I'd need. A video compression specialist and I'm likely looking for a well experienced specialist, with perhaps postgraduate work in studying the science of compression.
I always hired the person I thought could learn and do the best job. I'd rather have a younger employee that knows the material (trade school, self taught, etc) over an older employee that knows the same material (degree).
...and what I'm saying is those people who launch and operate successful businesses are a rarer find than you think.
I disagree, but I have yet to have you answer the question of what is "successful" in your mind. If you're talking billionaires, then sure, you would be correct. If you are talking about people making 6 to 7 figures and living a pretty good life, then you're off on this one.
Obviously, Facebook and Twitter fill a market need. Hence, they are valuable.
Again, why are we insisting generalization as truth? I can likewise say that most kids I've met are responsible and mature, not self-entitled. Thusly, most teenagers and young adults are responsible and mature. That's not entirely true, but I just find it an annoyance as to why people and the media label Generation Y as self-entitled because of their youth.
Google "Entitlement Era" and see for yourself what is going on. I swear I read the words "Entitlement Era" in at least a handful of articles every week. It isn't just me and I didn't coin the phrase.
Of course not, but your chances of meeting successful people or someone who will be of help in the long run are greater in college than through say, family and friends.
Meh, hard for either of us to argue this one, but if you have plenty of contacts and make a big enough splash, you'd be surprised how many people you can meet without college.
The employer does care if you have a degree. It's the most likely determinant for entry-level grads to even make the first round of interviews, for instance. Then of course, they're later screened on other criteria.
Again, depends on the job. If the employer is dead set on hiring someone who has a degree, then you would be correct.
bigh0rt wrote: Madison wrote:
When everyone has the same degree, the employer doesn't care.
If you can distinguish yourself in that situation, you didn't need college to begin with and you'd get the job either way (in most fields).
This is simply untrue. The market for jobs where a bachelors degree is a requirement is vast, and if you don't have one, you won't even be looked at; your resume will simply be discarded. It's for the reasons Ray has listed a few times now. Completing a 120 credit bachelors program does illustrate a degree of persistence, and ability. I know you've stated a few times that you would've slept your way through college, but that likely isn't true (I say this having almost no knowledge of your ability). Having not gone, I'm sure there's a picture of debauchery and reckless abandon partying in your mind; which certainly exists. However, there's also an abundance of work to be done if you wish to do anything other than skate by. All nighters cramming for mid-terms and final exams, labs, research, and the like. The degree is the culmination of all of that. Something like 50% of students who begin college never earn a degree, so your continued devaluing of its relevance I really just don't see. The only devaluing that's happening is that more people are getting them; and they're getting them mainly because they want to have a nice career and they know the best way there is through getting a degree. Are there other ways? Of course. But college remains the easiest way to get ones foot into the door of the vast majority of non-manual laborious careers that this country has to offer.
Honestly yes, I'd have slept through at least 2 years of college. If memory serves, I've got (had?) 7 or 8 classes I'd never have had to take but would have received the college credit for, just from my high school classes and additional learning. On top of those 7 or 8, I have no idea how many additional classes I could have "tested out" on. So I don't doubt that my first 2 years of college would have been a 100% waste of time (other than sports).
Actually the "debauchery and reckless abandon partying" is a plus in my mind for college. It's living on a bell schedule, learning squat, and wasting those 4 years that I had issue with, and ultimately why I didn't go. I figured at most in 4 years I'd be lucky if I had a total of 2 interesting classes (besides sports). 4 years of my life just wasn't worth that when the "ultimate prize" at the end of the tunnel isn't any big deal.
Like I have said, college degrees aren't worthless, but they are still overvalued. The ROI (Return On Investment) keeps getting worse though as college tuition keeps rising and employers realize they can get younger and better trained employees faster that require less salary (no college loans to pay off). You guys act like I'm saying college is totally worthless, when I'm simply saying the value isn't what some people wish it was. I don't like gold at $1,500 per ounce, I think it's currently overvalued. Does that mean I think gold is worthless though? Of course not.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....