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NL ROTY? Who could it be

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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:14 pm

Ender wrote:
I guess I don't understand why you'd ever ignore defense or position. Clearly from above McCutchen has been the superior player and worth more to the Pirates than has McGehee to the Brewers.


That isn't what I said though. I said it depends on how much you want to value them. It is pretty clear that defensive statistics are still in a bit of an infant stage and take longer to show the real picture. So some people might value the defense more or less than others. McGehee's original path to the majors was supposed to be his defense and the low UZR/150 so far could easily just be variance. Given the sample sizes I'd weigh the offensive side of things a lot higher than the defensive in general.

As for positionals that is more of a gray area but having looked at it closer they give the same positional modifier for 3B as they do for CF so it actually didn't apply in this case.


I don't think infant stage is accurate at all. If offensive statistics are in their teens, defense is an adolescent. Offense is probably in the 85-90% range and defense is around 60%. Pretending there is no or even little value there is not accurate. And while you can argue that McGehee's (or anyone's) defense is "variance" it may simply be that he's had a really crappy defensive year. Actually not even crappy, just a bit below average. And make no mistake about it, players have good years and bad years both with the stick and the glove.
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby kab21 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:32 pm

Happ is being considered for his accomplishments this year. that includes both his RP and SP appearances. His RP stats don't mean much overall since it's only a few inning (20 something) but they still have value.
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby AtlDynasty25 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:50 pm

bigh0rt wrote:When those are the only numbers you look at, it certainly can favor what you want it to.


What other numbers would you like to look at?
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby KCollins1304 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:33 pm

ayebatter wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:
ayebatter wrote:The value of the extra 21 innings Happ has tossed as a reliever, is as valuable (probably less so) to the Phils as the 67 relief innings Gregerson has tossed for the Padres, and neither pitcher would be considered for NL ROTY because of them. Happ is being considered (at least here) because of his accomplishments as a starter, and as such - Hanson clearly has the upper hand.


I don't understand why you would pretend he didn't throw those 21 innings and just throw them out the window. :-?


Because he's not being considered for ROTY for his accomplishments as a relief pitcher. Because he vultured 2 wins against the Nats in 3 innings of relief, I should give him the NL ROTY? Because the 3 losses Hanson has taken were against the Brewers/Dodgers/Phils, and 3 of the 4 Happ has taken were against the Padres/Pirates/Dbacks? Nope, I'm tossing out those relief innings because they mean less to the Phils, than Gregerson's relief innings to the Padres, and Gregerson isn't being considered as a ROTY candidate.


To me that makes as much sense as not including Kevin Youkilis' stats that he accrued playing LF and 3B for MVP voting when you're comparing him to Mark Teixeira. The bottom line is that he added value to the team while he was in the bullpen that Hanson was not contributing to the Braves while he was in AAA.
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby ayebatter » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:40 pm

kab21 wrote:Happ is being considered for his accomplishments this year. that includes both his RP and SP appearances. His RP stats don't mean much overall since it's only a few inning (20 something) but they still have value.



Correct you are, but what I'm saying is that although his relief innings have value, that I don't consider them to be of value in gaining my vote as NL ROTY, just as I don't consider lofty offensive numbers over lofty defensive numbers, in giving my vote to a gold glove winner[/b].
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby ayebatter » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:54 pm

KCollins1304 wrote:
ayebatter wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:
I don't understand why you would pretend he didn't throw those 21 innings and just throw them out the window. :-?


Because he's not being considered for ROTY for his accomplishments as a relief pitcher. Because he vultured 2 wins against the Nats in 3 innings of relief, I should give him the NL ROTY? Because the 3 losses Hanson has taken were against the Brewers/Dodgers/Phils, and 3 of the 4 Happ has taken were against the Padres/Pirates/Dbacks? Nope, I'm tossing out those relief innings because they mean less to the Phils, than Gregerson's relief innings to the Padres, and Gregerson isn't being considered as a ROTY candidate.


To me that makes as much sense as not including Kevin Youkilis' stats that he accrued playing LF and 3B for MVP voting when you're comparing him to Mark Teixeira. The bottom line is that he added value to the team while he was in the bullpen that Hanson was not contributing to the Braves while he was in AAA.


First off, only Mauer is really being given any credit for the position he plays , and I'm not so sure that's correct either, since he had over 100 at bats as a DH.

So Hanson was in the minors while Happ was a RP in the majors, might have been a big mistake on Philles part, as Happ has looked quite pedestrian in the last month, while Hanson has excelled.
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:54 pm

AtlDynasty25 wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:When those are the only numbers you look at, it certainly can favor what you want it to.


What other numbers would you like to look at?


FIP, xFIP, tRA, tRA*, pRAA.
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby AtlDynasty25 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:14 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:
FIP, xFIP, tRA, tRA*, pRAA.


Where can I find these stats?

Also, I highly doubt that many voters for ROY will be considering obscure sabermetic statistics when casting their votes.
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:40 pm

AtlDynasty25 wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:
FIP, xFIP, tRA, tRA*, pRAA.


Where can I find these stats?

Also, I highly doubt that many voters for ROY will be considering obscure sabermetic statistics when casting their votes.


The Hardball Times
FanGraphs
StatCorner

And the question was "Who should win?" and not "Who is going to win?" If you want to know who should win (based on his performance), you should learn about those stats. If you want to know who's going to win, find someone who's been solid who plays for an East Coast contender. And if he has a lot of necklaces or calm eyes, all the better. :-D

And they're not obscure just because you haven't heard of them. ;-)
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Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby swyck » Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:10 pm

ayebatter wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:[I don't understand why you would pretend he didn't throw those 21 innings and just throw them out the window. :-?


Because he's not being considered for ROTY for his accomplishments as a relief pitcher. Because he vultured 2 wins against the Nats in 3 innings of relief, I should give him the NL ROTY? Because the 3 losses Hanson has taken were against the Brewers/Dodgers/Phils, and 3 of the 4 Happ has taken were against the Padres/Pirates/Dbacks? Nope, I'm tossing out those relief innings because they mean less to the Phils, than Gregerson's relief innings to the Padres, and Gregerson isn't being considered as a ROTY candidate.


Sense made = none

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