Return to Baseball Leftovers

NL ROTY? Who could it be

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby Big Pimpin » Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:27 pm

Ender wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:
Except that the advantage he has with the stick is outweighed by the crappy D at a much less valuable position. Coghlan is the same story. Cabrera gets a "meh" from me and McGehee hasn't even hit as well as McCutchen, not to mention he's the inferior defensive player.


McCutchen has a .353 wOBA and 2.6 WAR.
McGehee is at a .377 wOBA and 2.1 WAR.

It really depends on how much you want to factor in defense and position. If you ignore positionals McGehee has probably had a better season, only thing that really pushes McCutchen over is he plays CF. I'd still give it to a pitcher though unless one of the hitters has a really hot September.


Well in all fairness, since that last post McCutchen has gone 3-22 while McGehee went 9-17 with 2 HRs. Small sample size FTW! :-b

I guess I don't understand why you'd ever ignore defense or position. Clearly from above McCutchen has been the superior player and worth more to the Pirates than has McGehee to the Brewers. Arguing that McGehee has been better simply because he's produced more offensively is, to me, nonsensical. I mean there's a reason that Adam Dunn isn't one of the top 10 players in baseball.

I could see giving it to a pitcher if McCutchen still hadn't been better than all of them. :-D
Big Pimpin
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
EditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb SupporterMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 13223
(Past Year: -487)
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Building a metric. And being ignorable and stupid.

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby Captain Furtah » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:46 pm

Didn't they create the Cy Young so you could separate hitters and pitchers? Why don't they do the same with the ROY? It is too hard to compare hitters to pitchers IMO.

For hitters - G Jones (McCutchen 2nd)
pitchers - R Wells (Happ 2nd)
Bleachergm.blogspot.com
Captain Furtah
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 837
(Past Year: -4)
Joined: 30 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Cleveland

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby Big Pimpin » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:07 pm

Captain Furtah wrote:Didn't they create the Cy Young so you could separate hitters and pitchers? Why don't they do the same with the ROY? It is too hard to compare hitters to pitchers IMO.


It's really not, you can measure them all in wins (or runs) above average. You just have to decide what you want to use.
Big Pimpin
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
EditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb SupporterMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 13223
(Past Year: -487)
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Building a metric. And being ignorable and stupid.

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby AtlDynasty25 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:24 am

Captain Furtah wrote:Didn't they create the Cy Young so you could separate hitters and pitchers? Why don't they do the same with the ROY? It is too hard to compare hitters to pitchers IMO.

For hitters - G Jones (McCutchen 2nd)
pitchers - R Wells (Happ 2nd)


I agree with your idea of having a separate ROY for both hitters and pitchers.

I would like to challenge you (and everyone else who likes Happ and/or Wells over Hanson) on your assessment of the pitchers though.

Win/Loss: Hanson:10-3, Happ:10-4, Wells:10-8
ERA:....... Hanson:2.65, Happ:2.77, Wells:3.18
WHIP:..... Hanson:1.18, Happ:1.18, Wells:1.29
K/9:....... Hanson:7.7, Happ:6.25, Wells:5.3
IP:......... Hanson:108.2, Happ:149.2, Wells:143

I don't see how a case can be made for Wells AT ALL.

Hanson also has better stats than Happ in all meaningful categories aside from sheer quantity of IP. Hanson has also been getting stronger and stronger as the year progresses, striking out more and more people as the year goes on. He will likely end the season with more K than IP. The only other factor that Happ has in his favor is that he plays for a playoff team, while the Braves are unlikely to make the playoffs, but this really says nothing about Happ's performance.

That said, the Braves face Happ tomorrow, and the Phillies likely face Hanson on Sunday in a crucial series. The way those two starts pan out could very well determine the winner of this competition.
AtlDynasty25
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 771
(Past Year: -3)
Joined: 3 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: In first Place

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby bigh0rt » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:58 am

AtlDynasty25 wrote:Win/Loss: Hanson:10-3, Happ:10-4, Wells:10-8
ERA:....... Hanson:2.65, Happ:2.77, Wells:3.18
WHIP:..... Hanson:1.18, Happ:1.18, Wells:1.29
K/9:....... Hanson:7.7, Happ:6.25, Wells:5.3
IP:......... Hanson:108.2, Happ:149.2, Wells:143

I don't see how a case can be made for Wells AT ALL.

When those are the only numbers you look at, it certainly can favor what you want it to.
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24931
(Past Year: 376)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby KCollins1304 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:07 am

AtlDynasty25 wrote:
Captain Furtah wrote:Didn't they create the Cy Young so you could separate hitters and pitchers? Why don't they do the same with the ROY? It is too hard to compare hitters to pitchers IMO.

For hitters - G Jones (McCutchen 2nd)
pitchers - R Wells (Happ 2nd)


I agree with your idea of having a separate ROY for both hitters and pitchers.

I would like to challenge you (and everyone else who likes Happ and/or Wells over Hanson) on your assessment of the pitchers though.

Win/Loss: Hanson:10-3, Happ:10-4, Wells:10-8
ERA:....... Hanson:2.65, Happ:2.77, Wells:3.18
WHIP:..... Hanson:1.18, Happ:1.18, Wells:1.29
K/9:....... Hanson:7.7, Happ:6.25, Wells:5.3
IP:......... Hanson:108.2, Happ:149.2, Wells:143

I don't see how a case can be made for Wells AT ALL.

Hanson also has better stats than Happ in all meaningful categories aside from sheer quantity of IP. Hanson has also been getting stronger and stronger as the year progresses, striking out more and more people as the year goes on. He will likely end the season with more K than IP. The only other factor that Happ has in his favor is that he plays for a playoff team, while the Braves are unlikely to make the playoffs, but this really says nothing about Happ's performance.

That said, the Braves face Happ tomorrow, and the Phillies likely face Hanson on Sunday in a crucial series. The way those two starts pan out could very well determine the winner of this competition.


There's a lot of value in Happ throwing 50% more innings than Hanson when all of their other stats are pretty close. I'd agree that Wells doesn't have much of a chance of winning though.
KCollins1304
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5039
(Past Year: -50)
Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby Ender » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:51 am

I guess I don't understand why you'd ever ignore defense or position. Clearly from above McCutchen has been the superior player and worth more to the Pirates than has McGehee to the Brewers.


That isn't what I said though. I said it depends on how much you want to value them. It is pretty clear that defensive statistics are still in a bit of an infant stage and take longer to show the real picture. So some people might value the defense more or less than others. McGehee's original path to the majors was supposed to be his defense and the low UZR/150 so far could easily just be variance. Given the sample sizes I'd weigh the offensive side of things a lot higher than the defensive in general.

As for positionals that is more of a gray area but having looked at it closer they give the same positional modifier for 3B as they do for CF so it actually didn't apply in this case.
Ender
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy Expert
Posts: 7705
(Past Year: -28)
Joined: 30 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby ayebatter » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:32 am

KCollins1304 wrote:
There's a lot of value in Happ throwing 50% more innings than Hanson when all of their other stats are pretty close.



The value of the extra 21 innings Happ has tossed as a reliever, is as valuable (probably less so) to the Phils as the 67 relief innings Gregerson has tossed for the Padres, and neither pitcher would be considered for NL ROTY because of them. Happ is being considered (at least here) because of his accomplishments as a starter, and as such - Hanson clearly has the upper hand.
So-Cal 25 Club _762_
ayebatter
Moderator
Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicResponse TeamMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 12441
(Past Year: 749)
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: I CAN SEE FOR MILES

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby KCollins1304 » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:36 am

ayebatter wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:
There's a lot of value in Happ throwing 50% more innings than Hanson when all of their other stats are pretty close.



The value of the extra 21 innings Happ has tossed as a reliever, is as valuable (probably less so) to the Phils as the 67 relief innings Gregerson has tossed for the Padres, and neither pitcher would be considered for NL ROTY because of them. Happ is being considered (at least here) because of his accomplishments as a starter, and as such - Hanson clearly has the upper hand.


I don't understand why you would pretend he didn't throw those 21 innings and just throw them out the window. :-?
KCollins1304
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5039
(Past Year: -50)
Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: NL ROTY? Who could it be

Postby ayebatter » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:06 pm

KCollins1304 wrote:
ayebatter wrote:
KCollins1304 wrote:
There's a lot of value in Happ throwing 50% more innings than Hanson when all of their other stats are pretty close.



The value of the extra 21 innings Happ has tossed as a reliever, is as valuable (probably less so) to the Phils as the 67 relief innings Gregerson has tossed for the Padres, and neither pitcher would be considered for NL ROTY because of them. Happ is being considered (at least here) because of his accomplishments as a starter, and as such - Hanson clearly has the upper hand.


I don't understand why you would pretend he didn't throw those 21 innings and just throw them out the window. :-?


Because he's not being considered for ROTY for his accomplishments as a relief pitcher. Because he vultured 2 wins against the Nats in 3 innings of relief, I should give him the NL ROTY? Because the 3 losses Hanson has taken were against the Brewers/Dodgers/Phils, and 3 of the 4 Happ has taken were against the Padres/Pirates/Dbacks? Nope, I'm tossing out those relief innings because they mean less to the Phils, than Gregerson's relief innings to the Padres, and Gregerson isn't being considered as a ROTY candidate.
So-Cal 25 Club _762_
ayebatter
Moderator
Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicResponse TeamMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 12441
(Past Year: 749)
Joined: 15 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: I CAN SEE FOR MILES

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests