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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:16 pm
by Amazinz
great gretzky wrote:...it is perfectly reasonable for people to believe it is an unjust law and decide not to honor it...

This is fundamentally wrong. First, for argument's sake let's say that marijuana and steroids are unjust laws (even though this hasn't actually been established nor is it consensus). Ethical responsibility requires disobedience in some cases. It is not a blanket responsibility to disobey any law you deem unjust because that is the same as anarchy.

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:30 pm
by great gretzky
Amazinz wrote:
great gretzky wrote:...it is perfectly reasonable for people to believe it is an unjust law and decide not to honor it...

This is fundamentally wrong. First, for argument's sake let's say that marijuana and steroids are unjust laws (even though this hasn't actually been established nor is it consensus). Ethical responsibility requires disobedience in some cases. It is not a blanket responsibility to disobey any law you deem unjust because that is the same as anarchy.


Not it isn't the same as anarchy, because society will still punish those who break the law, and limit through imprisonment, fines, and other punishment behavior that is illegal. Part of Civil Disobedience is doing the time if caught/arrested etc. There was "law and order" in Nazi Germany, Facist Spain and Italy and Vichy France. It doesn't mean that those societies weren't fundamentally unethical.

Again, I haven't attempted to argue that pot is even in the same solar system as those issues or issues that are weighty. But I have also made more arguments as to why the laws are unjust, whereas you have just made statements. The laws are arbitrary, and you could argue that its unethical to support the booze industry considering the sorrow that alcohol has contributed to. It is unethical to allow alcoholics to continue to buy alcohol, but it is legal. It's boggling my mind that these distinctions aren't clear to you.

I'd like to add as a side point that consensus isn't the final arbiter of justice either, ever hear of mob mentality? There was consensus about right and wrong there too. We have a Supreme Court that in theory isn't swayed by consensus of the citizens, but what is legal and what is not. We are a representative democracy, but it doesn't mean that majority rule in laws (or for that matter ethics and morality) is correct. Which is why if majority rule carried the day, minorities wouldn't have won the equality cases they have.

It's not fundamentally wrong, and you still haven't decoupled your argument about laws versus ethics. There are hundreds of years of thought behind my position in the form of published texts, ruminations, etc. On your side is Amazin's assertion that something is illegal so therefore it follows that it is unethical. It seems to me that you are arguing for civic duty to obey the law. Ever read 1984? Julia had a civic and legal prerogative/responsibility to turn in Winston Smith, but it was definitely unethical and immoral to do so.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but read the definitions of ethics, and read the definition of law. Ethics is a personal, laws are for society.

When you break the law, you are subject to penalties for doing so. However, you can smoke pot and still be ethical. It's legality is irrelevant.

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:10 pm
by Amazinz
The legality is not irrelevant because the very act of breaking the law is unethical. And you cannot convince me that marijuana and steroid laws are unjust and/or unethical enough to warrant Civil Disobedience.

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:24 pm
by Neato Torpedo
Amazinz wrote:The legality is not irrelevant because the very act of breaking the law is unethical. And you cannot convince me that marijuana and steroid laws are unjust and/or unethical enough to warrant Civil Disobedience.

"Unethical" is not a synonym for "bad".

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:07 pm
by Curtis Pride
jesus how many times do people need to give you countless examples as why breaking the law is unethical? you drive over 55. You break the law by playing fantasy sports for money. you drank beer in college. give me a break. Ignoring the fundamental points that poke the holes in your flimsy premise doesnt make it go away. And again, if breakking the law is automatically unethical then it would mean that following the law would therefore be ethical.

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:31 pm
by Amazinz
Well listen if the best you have is contrived examples and appeals to authority, color me unimpressed.

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:40 pm
by DaShiz23
8-o

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:56 pm
by great gretzky
seriously have you been exposed to western philosophy, ethics or core humanities at all?

You can be "colored unimpressed" all you want, but it doesn't mean your arguments aren't ignorant (not a synonym for stupid, so don't cry foul). Again, unless you are being deliberately obtuse, you haven't provided ONE single example, definition or text or argument for that matter that supports your case other than "i'm not convinced," "not following the law is unethical," etc. The point is if people like socrates, plato, st. augustine, kant, etc. don't "impress you," then this is a stupid argument as you need to have some baseline understanding of thoughts and ideas that have preceded your own, otherwise, it's futile to even bother.

Again, law and order are separate from ethics, see: Nazi Germany, Communist China, Sharia Law etc. You can obey the law and walk the straight and narrow as far as the law is concerned, but still be profoundly unethical. You could make the case that what Wall Street is doing is fundamentally unethical, but not illegal per se.

The two subjects are different strains of thought, and you really should look up these issues sometime, because its clear you are off base. Take away pot, as that is just an example, and pick something else. Those aren't "contrived" examples at all, considering that again the law isn't handed down to us from perfect beings, the laws are made by an amalgam of misguided, corrupt, unethical, and ethical lawmakers, voters, and shaped by lobbyists. Any individual in and of themselves has virtually no say in the making of said laws, so any individual who doesn't agree with the law only REALLY has to answer to their own ethics and conscience. That doesn't mean society isn't going to punish behavior that goes against the rules/law. But your "anarchy" example is more contrived than anything anyone else proposed, because law and order would still exist even if everyone were unethical, it would just be a perverse law and order. I'd add that your arguments appeal to authority much more than anyone else's.

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:31 pm
by Amazinz
Wasn't it Plato/Socrates who went as far as to say (in so many words) that even Civil Disobedience was unethical, that he had an unbreakable obligation to Athens' law?

We have an ethical responsibility to society and an aspect of that responsibility is upholding the law because the law in general serves the greater good. Breaking the law is in and of itself unethical.

Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:53 pm
by DbacksRback
killertofu2222 wrote:to stay on the subject of drugs...peyote. it is in navajo indian culture to eat them and have "journey's" and "visions." yet to the general public they are illegal to purchase/own/use. if i were to eat one, i would be breaking the law; but if Floating Feather decides that he needs to become a man, and in his culture the only way to do that is to purchase and eat 30 peyote buttons on a given weekend, is he not breaking the law as well? shouldnt Floating Feather abide by the same "laws" as i do being we are both american citizens? yet in his culture it is completely ethical to trip on peyote.


Floating Feather...haha you love smoking bud