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Are Steroids Unethical?

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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby Curtis Pride » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:05 pm

Ok. You are saying that smoking pot is not unethical. You did that here:
Amazinz wrote:Again, I never said smoking pot is unethical. Are you even bothering to read my posts? As far as pot smoking and Civil Disobedience you're going to need to feed that crap to someone else, brother. It's so ridiculous, I doubt you even believe it.


But you also say that "breaking the law" to smoke pot IS unethical. You did that here:
Amazinz wrote: Breaking the law to smoke marijuana simply because you disagree with the law is still unethical as is knowingly speeding.


and here:

Amazinz wrote:Breaking the law to smoke marijuana casually is undoubtedly unethical.


and also here:

Amazinz wrote:Breaking the law to smoke marjinuana or to use steroids is unethical regardless of how you feel about the law.


So smoking pot isn't unethical, but breaking the law to smoke pot IS unethical. The only variable is whether it's illegal or not.

Point of interest. I don't smoke pot. I don't like it. In fact, the only times I've smoked pot are in Amsterdam. So if I smoke pot for my own joy in Amsterdam (where it's legal), that's not unethical. But if I did the same thing - purchased illegally for no other purpose than "I want to do it" in the states, that WOULD be unethical?

There are no two ways about it; you are saying that the reason smoking pot is unethical is because it's illegal.

We are saying that's faulty logic. People don't need some higher purpose to break a law for it to be ethical. Legality has absolutely zero bearing on ethics. They have nothing to do with each other.

Someone spiking trees and killing forresters is illegal and unethical even if they are serving some higher purpose of saving trees.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby Yoda » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:07 pm

Ooooh I just thought of another one. Certain Mormon sects (as well as other religions) encourage men to have multiple wives. In this case, it is not unethical to have sex with multiple women.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby Curtis Pride » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:23 pm

Yoda wrote:Ooooh I just thought of another one. Certain Mormon sects (as well as other religions) encourage men to have multiple wives. In this case, it is not unethical to have sex with multiple women.

It isn't unethical to have sex with multiple women or get married to multiple woman/men so long as all of the people involved are willing participants with sufficient sovereignty (i.e old enough and mentally competent) to make such decisions.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby Amazinz » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:25 pm

Breaking the law is unethical. This is not faulty logic. This is not open to debate. This is always true except in the cases where the breaking of the law is an ethical act.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby Curtis Pride » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:31 pm

Amazinz wrote:Breaking the law is unethical. This is not faulty logic. This is not open to debate. This is always true except in the cases where the breaking of the law is an ethical act.

Actually it is faulty logic.

Law does not equal ethics just as ethics does not equal law. The only connection between the two is that societies build their legal structure on their moral and ethical guidelines. However, there is no direct correlation or black and white line.

The entire basis of Philosophy is built on the notion that ethics and law are not equivalent.

Can I assume you never drive over 55?

Oral sex is illegal in: Alabama, Arizona, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Georgia, North and South Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, Utah, Virginia and Washington D.C. Ever break the law in one of those states?
Last edited by Curtis Pride on Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby killertofu2222 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:34 pm

to stay on the subject of drugs...peyote. it is in navajo indian culture to eat them and have "journey's" and "visions." yet to the general public they are illegal to purchase/own/use. if i were to eat one, i would be breaking the law; but if Floating Feather decides that he needs to become a man, and in his culture the only way to do that is to purchase and eat 30 peyote buttons on a given weekend, is he not breaking the law as well? shouldnt Floating Feather abide by the same "laws" as i do being we are both american citizens? yet in his culture it is completely ethical to trip on peyote.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby Amazinz » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:42 pm

I didn't say ethics and law are the same thing. That is irrelevant to the truism that breaking the law is unethical.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby great gretzky » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:50 pm

Amazinz wrote:Breaking the law is unethical. This is not faulty logic. This is not open to debate. This is always true except in the cases where the breaking of the law is an ethical act.


I suggest you take an ethics course.

And I provided definitions for Civil Disobedience, and you have done nothing of the sort. You can disagree with me, and you can be a moderator, and I very rarely take any of this seriously on either forum (I am a cafeholic in both), but I take some umbrage at your tone towards the end of page 4. So I can "take this somewhere else brother" But from the definitions I provided, and others should you choose to read more about it, is that not following laws you believe immoral or unethical is the key factor of civil disobedience. Civil Disobedience is frequently equated with marching, protesting, etc., but it doesn't have to be. And as I said, this is not anywhere near the societal issue on the human level that racism and various other ills are, but just because its not high on the totem pole doesn't mean it isn't on the pole or the same ideas apply.

The logic as you present it is: smoking pot is illegal, breaking the law is unethical, so breaking the law to smoke pot is unethical.

But then you say that you never said smoking pot was unethical. Which may be technically and tediously true -- but it's not really true. This is because smoking pot IS breaking the law which you have summarily said is unethical. So either way you want to put emphasis on: the smoking of the pot or the breaking of the law, the actions are one and the same. You can't have it both ways. The fact of the matter is, and it needs to be repeated is: Ethics isn't law and law isn't ethics. And it is this way for good reason, as people all have different ethical codes, but society can't function on several legal codes. This isn't that hard.

When you summarily say "this is not open to debate" you belie your lack of familiarity with these distinctions because they have been argued about since time immemorial.

Is file sharing unethical? What about if you lived in a society that said it was legal? Is stealing wrong universally, or does society decide what is and isn't stealing? If so, what does a person's conscience factor in.

Is a spitball unethical? What about sign stealing? What about unwritten baseball rules and violating them? I know those issues aren't in legal textbooks, but the point still rings true. you can do things in sports that aren't expressly forbidden and still be considered "cheap" which is probably a close analogue to "unethical" on the field. Or you can do things that are expressly forbidden and still be hailed as a "gamer."

If you put this on the micro level for sports, the rules would be a good stand in for society and law. And we know there are rules, and then there are standards of behavior. Many people think Warren Sapp's hit on Chad Clifton was unethical and dirty, even though it was perfectly legal.

Again, the point you need to grasp is that Ethics and Law are not the same thing, and making the points you make and asserting them to "not be open for debate" doesn't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be.

"That is irrelevant to the truism that breaking the law is unethical." You are trying to retreat, but in your examples, you do make them seem similar. And no, it isn't irrelevant at at all, because if you are agreeing that ethics and law ARE NOT the same thing, then breaking the law can be ethics neutral, since they can function independently of one another even when they overlap.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby Curtis Pride » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:55 pm

Amazinz wrote:I didn't say ethics and law are the same thing. That is irrelevant to the truism that breaking the law is unethical.


"Breaking the law is unethical" is saying law is ethics. It can't get any more clear(ly wrong) than that.

As suggested, read up on ethics and philosophy. This discussion is basically the entire basis for both fields of thought.
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Re: Are Steroids Unethical?

Postby great gretzky » Thu Mar 19, 2009 4:01 pm

I mean the two words shouldn't even appear in the same sentence unless you are arguing their similarity.
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