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11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby Metroid » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:34 pm

Matthias wrote:
Metroid wrote:
Big Pimpin wrote:There's a lot of blame to go around and banks deserve plenty of it, but pretending that the people don't have any responsibility in any of this is a joke. Consider the new $75B foreclosure plan. Why are these people getting foreclosed on? It couldn't be because they signed on the dotted line for a house they couldn't afford, could it? It's all about keeping up with Joneses, and now these people aren't going to be punished for their own idiocy. I think it's quite sad, really.

First of all not all these foreclosures are due to people buying above their means, a lot are but not all. And second the banks should have been more careful about how much they loaned people. While it was irresponsible for borrowers to bite off more than they can chew it was much more irresponsible for the lenders to allow it to happen. You're right though nobody is blameless in this.

Well, and if you get down to brass tacks, if all that happened was that US home prices declined, you really wouldn't have that big of a problem. People would have problems selling their home if they wanted to move or getting a new loan if they wanted to cash out (now non-existent) equity in their house, but it wouldn't send the Dow to its lowest level in 8 years. What did that was that Wall Street diced up the mortgages into investment vehicles and then a number of institutions, such as AIG, bet the house heavy that mortgages were, "safe as houses". When the housing market fell, the Las Vegas of CDOs collapsed and that's what dragged everything down with it.

In short, it's like leaving an inch of gasoline on the floor of your house and then blaming someone for burning down your house after they knocked over a candle. Did it cause it? Sure, in an ultimate sense. Did it have to cause it? No, not at all, not one bit.

Totally I was just commenting on the homeowners/buyers vs. lenders responsibility, not really the big picture.
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby Matthias » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:43 pm

Metroid wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Metroid wrote:First of all not all these foreclosures are due to people buying above their means, a lot are but not all. And second the banks should have been more careful about how much they loaned people. While it was irresponsible for borrowers to bite off more than they can chew it was much more irresponsible for the lenders to allow it to happen. You're right though nobody is blameless in this.

Well, and if you get down to brass tacks, if all that happened was that US home prices declined, you really wouldn't have that big of a problem. People would have problems selling their home if they wanted to move or getting a new loan if they wanted to cash out (now non-existent) equity in their house, but it wouldn't send the Dow to its lowest level in 8 years. What did that was that Wall Street diced up the mortgages into investment vehicles and then a number of institutions, such as AIG, bet the house heavy that mortgages were, "safe as houses". When the housing market fell, the Las Vegas of CDOs collapsed and that's what dragged everything down with it.

In short, it's like leaving an inch of gasoline on the floor of your house and then blaming someone for burning down your house after they knocked over a candle. Did it cause it? Sure, in an ultimate sense. Did it have to cause it? No, not at all, not one bit.

Totally I was just commenting on the homeowners/buyers vs. lenders responsibility, not really the big picture.

Sure, my comment was more trying to reinforce yours. And also I wanted to separate out that although it's obviously asinine to place the blame 100% in any one place, it's also not fair to equivocate and say, "Well, nobody is clean in this and the blame is shared." That's obviously true to a certain extent, but ultimately, if people hadn't been gambling on mortgages, we wouldn't find ourselves in the economic crisis that we do. It would just be a blip on the overall economic news. So in the larger picture, it's something like 3% of the blame is on home-owners, and 97% on the banks that bet on them and the government that let it happen unregulated.
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby Curtis Pride » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:45 pm

CadensDad wrote:
pjalst wrote:
AussieDodger wrote:
Hater :-t


+1 :-t


Once again how so? How am I a hater? What am I hating? The USA? The President? the stimulas package? I'm lost here. What am I a hater of?


How often did you refer to Regan's middle name? Or Clinton's or Bush's? Do you even know Carter's?

This pathetic Ann Coulter-lead "Hussein" is insulting.

Yes, it's his middle name. He doesn't use the middle name in anything. If it was the inauguration - everyone gets inaugurated with their full names.

The only reason you are using Hussein is to scare people and try to tie him to terrorism. That's it. Parse it any way you want, the only reason the right wing uses his name "Hussein" is to appeal to the fear of xenophobes and racists.

So yes, that's a hater.
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby cordscords » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:47 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Most of the criticism being lobbed at Obama is indeed valid, what cracks me up, though, is that most of the people doing the criticizing and calling him a socialist were virtually silent while Bush was essentially nationalizing the banking and auto industries and amassing as much debt as every other president in history combined*. I saw a clip of Glenn Beck going off about Obama the Socialist recently, and even though I don't disagree with everything he said, it strikes me as funny that he would give Bush a pass for his "socialist agenda." Obama has spent less in his first few weeks than Bush did in his last few weeks, but somehow the $800 billion spent in early 2009 is somehow worse than the $800 billion spent in late 2008?

*according to a recent article in Harper's Magazine written by Nobel Prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz former budget secretary in the Commerce Department Linda Bilmes.


The socialist agenda has been being pushed for the last 30+ years. Just going back to Bush II doesn't do it justice, as it can easily be traced back to Carter. The pro-Marxist, pro-socialist Trilaterals (Carter, Mondale, HW Bush, Clinton, Gore, Cheney) have essentially hijacked the Executive Branch of the U.S. Government and it continues to this day with another man groomed for the position by the founding members of the Commission. The only person running for President this time around that scared them at all was Ron Paul. Not only through President and Vice President, but they also dominate banking, trade, economics, and foreign policy.

We're being pushed toward globalization. It will start with some North American union, but the endgame is most certainly a one-world government.


And AussieDodger, the honeymoon is over. Obama sucks. :-)


;-D

Oh and I love the set up :-D
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby Guru13 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:50 pm

Funny how a joke can get way out of hand.


You can add me to the hater list, I chuckled. ;-D
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby Matthias » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:51 pm

Matthias wrote:
CadensDad wrote:# 1. 2008 Presidential Election- Barack Hussein Obama spends $800 Billion in the first two months………..

Open question to the floor: If a company (Toyota/Microsoft/whoever you want to think of) announced tomorrow that they're going to be increasing their US operations and spending $800 billion over the next few years, would you view that as a catastrophe? As a boon and a saving grace? As a company to be praised because they're investing in America? Or how?

No thoughts on this?
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby Curtis Pride » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:56 pm

Matthias wrote:
Matthias wrote:
CadensDad wrote:# 1. 2008 Presidential Election- Barack Hussein Obama spends $800 Billion in the first two months………..

Open question to the floor: If a company (Toyota/Microsoft/whoever you want to think of) announced tomorrow that they're going to be increasing their US operations and spending $800 billion over the next few years, would you view that as a catastrophe? As a boon and a saving grace? As a company to be praised because they're investing in America? Or how?

No thoughts on this?

Because a private company raises the $800b by corporate profits which they honestly acquired by providing services to their willful customers.

The federal government raised this money by printing more money and deflating the currency and supplemented it by robbing the taxpayers.

How on earth do you equate the two?
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby Matthias » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:04 pm

Curtis Pride wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Matthias wrote:Open question to the floor: If a company (Toyota/Microsoft/whoever you want to think of) announced tomorrow that they're going to be increasing their US operations and spending $800 billion over the next few years, would you view that as a catastrophe? As a boon and a saving grace? As a company to be praised because they're investing in America? Or how?

No thoughts on this?

Because a private company raises the $800b by corporate profits which they honestly acquired by providing services to their willful customers.

The federal government raised this money by printing more money and deflating the currency and supplemented it by robbing the taxpayers.

How on earth do you equate the two?

Not necessarily true. The United States is not just upping its supply of dollars; it is borrowing money from the Chinese to finance its operations via US bonds. That is analogous to a private company raising capital via their own bond offering. But even if the US just decided to print more currency, it would be no different from a company deciding to issue more shares, which dilutes the value of all current shareholders. Deflate the dollar, devalue the current share, basically the same concept.

As far as corporate profits honestly acquired, that's essentially what taxes are. People might not like them, people might disagree with them, people might think they're at the wrong level, but every year someone is an American citizen they are re-authorizing the social contract they have with the United States that in exchange for the protections, liberties, and rights that the US is affording them, they are acquiescing to forgo X% of their income. If people don't like the exchange of services for their taxes, they're always free to choose a different "brand".

So, to restate, if this were a private corporation announcing an $800bn investment into the US, what would be people's reaction?
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby knapplc » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:05 pm

I hate that Toyota is doing that because I'm a Ford man. America, baby! Besides, the owner of Toyota has a foreign-sounding name, and I don't dig that. Not one bit.
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Re: 11 Most Expensive Catastrophes in History

Postby Neato Torpedo » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:08 pm

Obama. Cute.
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