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Manny Ramirez Rumors

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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby noseeum » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:16 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:I hesitate to even enter this conversation because, well, I really don't care and find the whole thing kind of silly, but how are you not counting Andy Pettitte as a free agent? That's like saying if the Indians sign Ramirez tomorrow, that's not free agency, that's developing home-grown talent.


Pettitte is a free agent.

I'm talking about noseeum listing him as 'home grown' in his chart.


For the purposes of an argument based around, "The Yankees don't develop their own talent," I think it makes a lot more sense to include Pettitte in the "home grown" category than the FA category. But you may differ.

Neato, you aren't making any sense.

Neato Torpedo wrote:I'm not saying the Cubs aren't big spenders, and my main issue isn't with spending as a whole, it's free agent superstar spending. I don't know how you aren't getting this.


They have done that. It's Soriano. The Yankees only have one free agent superstar as well and that's CC. You're cherry picking.

You may argue that the Cubs have done a much better job at finding under appreciated free agents and getting bargains a la Lilly and Dempster, but so what? Good for the Cubs, bad for the Yankees in choosing Pavano and Wright in 2004 instead of Dempster. That doesn't change they both used the same strategy to improve. It worked for the Cubs and bombed for the Yankees.

You have a hypothesis in your head: "Yankees get all the high priced FAs and no one else does. Yankees never build talent from within. Cubs trade for talent and never get any high priced FAs."

One tests a hypothesis with facts. And tests reveal yours fails.

Root for the Royals if you want to complain about the Yankees, not the Cubs.
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby mweir145 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:58 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Also...the Cubs are just as guilty of buying players as the Yankees. You really have nothing to complain about.

Please read my previous post and name some high priced superstar FA the Cubs bought besides Soriano and Fukudome, which are the only two in a long-ass time. Who will you come up with? Alou? Glendon Rusch? Like I said, they got their nucleus by gutting their minor league system in exchange for MLB players, which is completely different.

Didn't they sign Ted Lilly for 40 million over 4 years a little while back? And now Dempster for 52 million over 4?

They aren't exactly in the poorhouse.
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby mweir145 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:04 pm

I'm not saying the Cubs aren't big spenders, and my main issue isn't with spending as a whole, it's free agent superstar spending. I don't know how you aren't getting this.

How can you criticize the Yankees for playing by the rules, especially when the Cubs pretty much do the same thing on a slightly smaller scale?
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby noseeum » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:29 pm

mweir145 wrote:How can you criticize the Yankees for playing by the rules, especially when the Cubs pretty much do the same thing on a slightly smaller scale?


Put on a Cubs hat and start typing? :-b
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby Neato Torpedo » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:49 pm

noseeum wrote:They have done that. It's Soriano. The Yankees only have one free agent superstar as well and that's CC. You're cherry picking.

You may argue that the Cubs have done a much better job at finding under appreciated free agents and getting bargains a la Lilly and Dempster, but so what? Good for the Cubs, bad for the Yankees in choosing Pavano and Wright in 2004 instead of Dempster. That doesn't change they both used the same strategy to improve. It worked for the Cubs and bombed for the Yankees.

You have a hypothesis in your head: "Yankees get all the high priced FAs and no one else does. Yankees never build talent from within. Cubs trade for talent and never get any high priced FAs."

One tests a hypothesis with facts. And tests reveal yours fails.

Root for the Royals if you want to complain about the Yankees, not the Cubs.

Jesus crap man, you're putting words in my mouth. All three sentences of your vision of my hypothesis is wrong. I never said they get "all the high priced FAs", I just said that they frequently go after them. I never said the Yankees "never build talent from within". I recognize Joba, Cano, and to a lesser extent Wang as quality players built from within this decade. I did say that the Cubs primarily trade for talent but I never said they didn't get high-priced FAs. Lilly and Marquis were high priced but to call them stars or marquee names is a massive stretch. Didn't I make the distinction between "high-priced" and "star" yet? Were Lilly, Marquis, and Derosa anywhere near the top of the FA list the year they were signed?

I never mentioned Pavano and Wright because they're not stars. And I corrected myself a little later from superstars to star-level players. Alright, I'll scratch CC because of Soriano. Where's the Cubs' equivalent of Burnett, Damon, and Matsui? Lilly, Derosa, and Fukudome? Yeah right. I'm the Cubs fan here, I should be the one unreasonably elevating my players' status, not you guys. :-S
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:50 pm

Sorry, I thought this was a thread about Manny... }:-)
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby Neato Torpedo » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:54 pm

mweir145 wrote:
Neato Torpedo wrote:
mweir145 wrote:Also...the Cubs are just as guilty of buying players as the Yankees. You really have nothing to complain about.

Please read my previous post and name some high priced superstar FA the Cubs bought besides Soriano and Fukudome, which are the only two in a long-ass time. Who will you come up with? Alou? Glendon Rusch? Like I said, they got their nucleus by gutting their minor league system in exchange for MLB players, which is completely different.

Didn't they sign Ted Lilly for 40 million over 4 years a little while back? And now Dempster for 52 million over 4?

They aren't exactly in the poorhouse.

Neato Torpedo wrote:high priced superstar FA

If you count Lilly as a superstar then your standards are HELLA low.

And if we're going to count Dempster's recent re-signing as a FA signing, then we have to count A-Rod's, which tilts the argument in my favor even more. My argument was never "the Cubs don't spend a lot of money", I said several times that most of the Cubs payroll is players that came over in trades and the three overpaid middle-of-the-road pitchers Lilly, Marquis, and now Dempster.
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby Neato Torpedo » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:58 pm

noseeum wrote:
mweir145 wrote:How can you criticize the Yankees for playing by the rules, especially when the Cubs pretty much do the same thing on a slightly smaller scale?


Put on a Cubs hat and start typing? :-b

And for the record, my hat says I HAVE A POTTY MOUTH!
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby Yoda » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:06 pm

I heard the Cubs were interested in Manny
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Re: Manny Ramirez Rumors

Postby noseeum » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:10 pm

Neato Torpedo wrote:And if we're going to count Dempster's recent re-signing as a FA signing, then we have to count A-Rod's...


January 21, 2004: Signed as a Free Agent with the Chicago Cubs.

How do you figure? Do I know more about your team than you do? LOL.
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