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Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby Yoda » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:43 am

I still do not know what a cap will accomplish except put more money in owners' pocket. Instead of reinvesting in their team and baseball essentially, that money is now spent elsewhere. How does that exactly help the game?

They already have a soft cap with the luxury tax and shared revenue.
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby J35J » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:37 pm

Yoda wrote:I still do not know what a cap will accomplish except put more money in owners' pocket. Instead of reinvesting in their team and baseball essentially, that money is now spent elsewhere. How does that exactly help the game?

They already have a soft cap with the luxury tax and shared revenue.


You really are fighting this....I don't care what they do. It doesn't have to be a cap. It can be a floor. It can be a cap and a floor. It can be a cap, floor and more luxury tax. It could be that they grow money from trees....I don't care and I don't care where the money comes from and/or who's pockets it fills, just as long as we can get some sort of level ground from the start....thats all.

Maybe put none of this in place and just REQUIRE owners to spend their Luxury Tax money in FULL....no pocketing of the money...something...anything....just get these payrolls within 20-30 mil of each other.
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby Tavish » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:05 pm

HOOTIE wrote:Pittsburgh and KC might not agree?

Pittsburgh and KC owners can blame the design of the league all they want, but those teams consistently lose because of poor management. If they went out and spent $140 million the same way they are spending $60 million they would end up with the Mariners.
The owners invested in the team, (buying it), and spend on payroll. I would rather they get a return on their investment, then these ridiculous contracts. How many big money players have really earned their salaries? Arod, Manny, but the bomb list is much greater. You think CC is worth 120-140 mil? What i mean is, will his stats justify the contract? Lot of money on a heavily used arm. I can see spending on guys like Arod, Pujols, Wright, Utley, Hanley, Cabrera. I don't care for long deals on pitchers.

There will be bad contracts with a salary cap too. A salary cap only limits a team from their own stupidity and squeezes the salary of the middle-tier players. A-Rod, Manny, CC, Pujols, MCab, etc are still going to get paid outrageous amounts under a salary cap and the replacement level players are still going to get league minimums. Its the vast majority of the players that fall in between that get their salaries squeezed.
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby J35J » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:13 pm

Tavish wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:Pittsburgh and KC might not agree?

Pittsburgh and KC owners can blame the design of the league all they want, but those teams consistently lose because of poor management. If they went out and spent $140 million the same way they are spending $60 million they would end up with the Mariners.


No one is arguing that alot of teams spend their money wrong...or their organization is just poorly run. Why can't we just START on equal footing and let it all play out from there. Teams will still have good management or bad management and teams will still consistantly lose and/or consistantly win but at least everyone will feel like all teams are starting from the same spot.
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby Yoda » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:30 pm

J35J wrote:
Yoda wrote:I still do not know what a cap will accomplish except put more money in owners' pocket. Instead of reinvesting in their team and baseball essentially, that money is now spent elsewhere. How does that exactly help the game?

They already have a soft cap with the luxury tax and shared revenue.


You really are fighting this....I don't care what they do. It doesn't have to be a cap. It can be a floor. It can be a cap and a floor. It can be a cap, floor and more luxury tax. It could be that they grow money from trees....I don't care and I don't care where the money comes from and/or who's pockets it fills, just as long as we can get some sort of level ground from the start....thats all.

Maybe put none of this in place and just REQUIRE owners to spend their Luxury Tax money in FULL....no pocketing of the money...something...anything....just get these payrolls within 20-30 mil of each other.


You are asking for something that doesn't exist. Look at other pro sports with caps and tell me if there is a perfect system. By implementing a cap, you are solving one problem by creating another one.
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby mweir145 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:33 pm

J35J wrote:I just want a good product....one that starts out on level ground. The best organizations will still continue to win if they are the best....at least we will know everyone had a fair shake from the start.

Exactly. In hockey when a cap was implemented, we soon found out who were the posers who simply had a lot of money (Leafs, Rangers), and the teams with good management (Red Wings). With a cap, the teams who truly have better management will win, and not just the teams with the most money. Oh, and fixing the draft system would be a good start before all of this. Teams like Boston and New York have been going over slot for years, giving them the best young players too.
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby Yoda » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:39 pm

mweir145 wrote:
J35J wrote:I just want a good product....one that starts out on level ground. The best organizations will still continue to win if they are the best....at least we will know everyone had a fair shake from the start.

Exactly. In hockey when a cap was implemented, we soon found out who were the posers who simply had a lot of money (Leafs, Rangers), and the teams with good management (Red Wings). With a cap, the teams who truly have better management will win, and not just the teams with the most money. Oh, and fixing the draft system would be a good start before all of this. Teams like Boston and New York have been going over slot for years, giving them the best young players too.


WTF? The Rangers won one championship since 1940. How many did the Wings win? Money cannot buy you a championship.

When was the last time the Yanks won? Mets? Did the Sox really win recently because of money? No, look at their core players who are homegrown and how well they run the team.

Compare that to the Jays who has a manager that wants to fist fight his players and a GM who runs his mouth like an idiot. You would not see things like that happen on a good team.
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby J35J » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:56 pm

Yoda wrote:You are asking for something that doesn't exist. Look at other pro sports with caps and tell me if there is a perfect system. By implementing a cap, you are solving one problem by creating another one.

What is the problem a cap and/or floor would create?
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby mweir145 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:02 pm

Yoda wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
J35J wrote:I just want a good product....one that starts out on level ground. The best organizations will still continue to win if they are the best....at least we will know everyone had a fair shake from the start.

Exactly. In hockey when a cap was implemented, we soon found out who were the posers who simply had a lot of money (Leafs, Rangers), and the teams with good management (Red Wings). With a cap, the teams who truly have better management will win, and not just the teams with the most money. Oh, and fixing the draft system would be a good start before all of this. Teams like Boston and New York have been going over slot for years, giving them the best young players too.

WTF? The Rangers won one championship since 1940. How many did the Wings win? Money cannot buy you a championship.

Before I say anything else, it's not about championships. It's about playoff appearances, and giving yourself the opportunity to win championships. That's how I judge success. The Rangers were probably not the best example (as they gave some awful contracts out 5-6 years back which crippled them), but the Leafs routinely finished in the top 4 in the league before the salary cap era. Now that there is a cap, the fans have found out that their success was primarily based on their high payroll, and not on the fact that they had a good management team.


When was the last time the Yanks won?

The Yankees made the playoffs every year from 1994 until this year. They are the most successful and best major league baseball team consistently in my mind.

Did the Sox really win recently because of money? No, look at their core players who are homegrown and how well they run the team.

They got those homegrown players through going over slot in drafts. Something most major league teams aren't able to do.

Compare that to the Jays who has a manager that wants to fist fight his players and a GM who runs his mouth like an idiot. You would not see things like that happen on a good team.

Stop always making things about the Jays. :-D

This has nothing to do with them. As far as I know, I've never suggested they were a well-run baseball team. Oh, and John Gibbons is a bench coach for KC. We have Cito now.
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Re: Yankees Offer Sabathia Contract

Postby mweir145 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:15 pm

J35J wrote:
Yoda wrote:You are asking for something that doesn't exist. Look at other pro sports with caps and tell me if there is a perfect system. By implementing a cap, you are solving one problem by creating another one.

What is the problem a cap and/or floor would create?


The only problem is the MLBPA wouldn't accept a cap. Tavish is right. It's the guys in the middle that would be hurt the most. Relievers like Jeremy Affeldt certainly wouldn't be getting 4M/year contracts anymore. For a salary cap to occur, we'd likely have to have a lockout of a year or longer. The owners (who are all making profits as it is) wouldn't want to do that, even with the endgame being so profitable. They are all perfectly content with the situation as it is. With the New Yorks and Bostons of the world succeeding, the league and the rest of the owners make money.

The only reason a strict salary cap ever happened in hockey was that the league was at risk of going under if they didn't do something to stop the crazy contracts. Most of the owners were losing money in the NHL, and they needed a change. That's just not happening in baseball.

So really, this is just a dream scenario that will probably never happen. Baseball is going to have to stop being so profitable first.
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