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Solomon Torres retires

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Re: Solomon Torres retires

Postby Scooter1027 » Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:11 pm

I'm not saying I only view Villy as a long-reliever/mop-up type guy. He's just a guy that can pitch anytime and get big innings. The 9th doesn't matter if you lose it in the 7th, that's why closers are so overrated. Sometimes the highest leverage situation is in the 6th or 7th inning. In '08, one day Villy would pitch a big 8th inning in a setup role, the next day he'd bridge the 5th-7th innings when a starter left a little early, allowing guys like Mota (surprisingly decent last year), and Torres to finish it out. That versatility and endurance is too valuable to pigeon-hole into the 50-60 innings of 9th inning ball he'd pitch as closer, in my opinion.

Now, that said, as the roster stands right now, we would probably have to use Villy in a primarily set-up or closer role because there are not many options. That's why I think the '09 closer isn't currently on the roster. I don't think a smaller market team like the Brewers would ever throw the type of money at a closer that K-Rod is demanding, it won't happen. Maybe Fuentes, maybe Hoffmann.
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Re: Solomon Torres retires

Postby Noggy » Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:28 pm

Scooter1027 wrote:I'm not saying I only view Villy as a long-reliever/mop-up type guy. He's just a guy that can pitch anytime and get big innings. The 9th doesn't matter if you lose it in the 7th, that's why closers are so overrated. Sometimes the highest leverage situation is in the 6th or 7th inning. In '08, one day Villy would pitch a big 8th inning in a setup role, the next day he'd bridge the 5th-7th innings when a starter left a little early, allowing guys like Mota (surprisingly decent last year), and Torres to finish it out. That versatility and endurance is too valuable to pigeon-hole into the 50-60 innings of 9th inning ball he'd pitch as closer, in my opinion.


You want your best relievers available for as many close games as possible. If you're going to the pen in the 5th inning, the game is most likely a blowout and you want to have a good RP throw 3 or 4 innings in a meaningless game thus making him unavailable to pitch for the next few games. A few potentially close games that a good reliever would be very useful in.

If the Brewers bullpen is deep enough to lose Villanueva for days at a time, then by all means they should use him in the role you want for him. But if you are relying on guys like Guillermo Mota, he with a 1.40 WHIP last season, to close out games then Villanueva should be "pigeon-holed". A team is much more likely to lose after blowing the lead in the 9th than they are in the 6th or 7th.
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Re: Solomon Torres retires

Postby Scooter1027 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:51 am

Noggy wrote:
Scooter1027 wrote:I'm not saying I only view Villy as a long-reliever/mop-up type guy. He's just a guy that can pitch anytime and get big innings. The 9th doesn't matter if you lose it in the 7th, that's why closers are so overrated. Sometimes the highest leverage situation is in the 6th or 7th inning. In '08, one day Villy would pitch a big 8th inning in a setup role, the next day he'd bridge the 5th-7th innings when a starter left a little early, allowing guys like Mota (surprisingly decent last year), and Torres to finish it out. That versatility and endurance is too valuable to pigeon-hole into the 50-60 innings of 9th inning ball he'd pitch as closer, in my opinion.


You want your best relievers available for as many close games as possible. If you're going to the pen in the 5th inning, the game is most likely a blowout and you want to have a good RP throw 3 or 4 innings in a meaningless game thus making him unavailable to pitch for the next few games. A few potentially close games that a good reliever would be very useful in.

If the Brewers bullpen is deep enough to lose Villanueva for days at a time, then by all means they should use him in the role you want for him. But if you are relying on guys like Guillermo Mota, he with a 1.40 WHIP last season, to close out games then Villanueva should be "pigeon-holed". A team is much more likely to lose after blowing the lead in the 9th than they are in the 6th or 7th.


Again, you're implying a mop-up role when I am not. You're up 6-3 in the 5th, Jeff Suppan promptly gives up a couple runs, has a couple on base, and you bring in Villanueva in a double-switch. He gets out of it 6-5, gets you to the 7th or 8th, and you take it from there. I'm not saying pitch him in blow outs. His ability to be good in short bursts but also extend 2-3 innings has been very valuable to this team. I'd rather have him throw 80-85 IP in a MR role that 50-60 in a closing role. But maybe that's just me.

Also, I agree with your last point -- as the roster is currently constructed, he probably should be stuck in an 8th or 9th inning role. There aren't many proven options, and all things equal, those are the higher leverage innings. But that's also why I think the '09 closer isn't on the roster yet. I would not be surprised by a Wood, Fuentes, or Hoffmann.
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Re: Solomon Torres retires

Postby Noggy » Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:13 am

Scooter1027 wrote:Again, you're implying a mop-up role when I am not. You're up 6-3 in the 5th, Jeff Suppan promptly gives up a couple runs, has a couple on base, and you bring in Villanueva in a double-switch. He gets out of it 6-5, gets you to the 7th or 8th, and you take it from there. I'm not saying pitch him in blow outs. His ability to be good in short bursts but also extend 2-3 innings has been very valuable to this team. I'd rather have him throw 80-85 IP in a MR role that 50-60 in a closing role. But maybe that's just me.


If Suppan struggles to get out of the 5th inning when he has 6 runs to work with on a regular basis and Villanueva can pitch 3 or 4 scoreless innings on a regular basis, then Villanueva should be starting and Suppan should be DFA'd.

If all you want is 80 innings, then pitching the 8th or 9th is no problem. A healthy and effective closer will give you about 70 innings, setup men usually fall in the 75-80 innings range these days. A little lower than your quota I know, but much more of those innings are high leverage compared to pitchers who enter the game before the 6th inning.
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Re: Solomon Torres retires

Postby Scooter1027 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:38 am

Noggy wrote:
Scooter1027 wrote:Again, you're implying a mop-up role when I am not. You're up 6-3 in the 5th, Jeff Suppan promptly gives up a couple runs, has a couple on base, and you bring in Villanueva in a double-switch. He gets out of it 6-5, gets you to the 7th or 8th, and you take it from there. I'm not saying pitch him in blow outs. His ability to be good in short bursts but also extend 2-3 innings has been very valuable to this team. I'd rather have him throw 80-85 IP in a MR role that 50-60 in a closing role. But maybe that's just me.


If Suppan struggles to get out of the 5th inning when he has 6 runs to work with on a regular basis and Villanueva can pitch 3 or 4 scoreless innings on a regular basis, then Villanueva should be starting and Suppan should be DFA'd.

If all you want is 80 innings, then pitching the 8th or 9th is no problem. A healthy and effective closer will give you about 70 innings, setup men usually fall in the 75-80 innings range these days. A little lower than your quota I know, but much more of those innings are high leverage compared to pitchers who enter the game before the 6th inning.


Haha, well, I do think Villanueva should be starting and I think Suppan should be DFA'd. With Soup, Parra, and Bush, Villanueva got us out of some 5th-6th-7th inning jams this year. I guess I have some of those games fresh in my mind and it worries me thinking about who else on the roster could get us out of some of those jams. Without Villanueva a lot of games wouldn't have mattered by the time it got to the 8th/9th. But anyway, I guess that's why I'm hoping a couple more relievers are brought in.
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Re: Solomon Torres retires

Postby kab21 » Fri Nov 14, 2008 1:37 pm

Whether or not Villanueva is pitching the 7th, 8th or 9th it doesn't change the fact that the Brewers need to bring in 1-2 guys just to give them a decent pen. And one of the guys that they bring in will likely be added as the closer. I do think Villanueva loses some value (real life value) if you are bringing him in the 5th or 6th for several innings because your starter struggling. But I think Villanueva carries good value as a 7th inning guy that can also work the 8th in medium to high leverage situations.
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