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Why does Cashman still have a job?

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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby RynMan » Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:36 pm

Yeah you're right, I'd much rather have someone like Jeff Weaver. His 4.01 ERA in 6 postseason starts seals the deal.
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby Noggy » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:45 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:I disagree that this is a team built to win now. Sure, you have old guys like Damon and Matsui under contract, but that's only until the end of the year. They really don't have any aging guys under long-term contracts except Posada and I guess you could put Jeter and A-Rod in that category, although both of them, especially A-Rod, are still uber-productive.

The thing about Sabathia is that he isn't a quick fix. It's going to be like a 6 or 7 year commitment. If it was a deal where they could overpay him for a couple years to try to get them over the hump, fine. But this might be the richest contract for a pitcher in history. I'm not saying they shouldn't sign him, I'm just expressing some concern.


True, besides A-Rod nobody is signed to a super long contract. The problem is when the shorter contracts are up, who are replacing these guys? Austin Jackson and depending on how you feel about him, Juan Miranda, are the only guys in the upper levels of the minor leagues who have a realistic chance of being everyday players. Everyone else is in low-A or rookie ball. The pitching staff isn't to the point where you could say there is an excess and you can trade them for bats. And of course it's not easy to build through free agency.

Of the players on the team right now, A-Rod and Cano are probably the only two that can be expected to be above average three years from now. The offense is going to need a major overhaul soon, which is why I say they are built to win now because you can't expect a seemless transition.

They can win now with the current core, but they need a major addition to the pitching staff. They don't have the time to sign a mid level FA pitcher who won't make a big impact and wait for high end like Andrew Brackman or Dellin Betances to get to the majors. Sabathia is young enough that he can help now and later when the team retools and he only costs money. I acknowledge the health risk with a long contract, but I just feel it's a chance that should be taken.
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:56 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
I have concerns about him as well, but that's not even a blip on the radar.

and ultimately, that will be part of the continued problem in NY...


Sabathia has thrown 25 career postseason innings. Basing your opinion of a player on a 25-inning frame is the real problem. :-°

I said I had a concern about his performance, not that I was basing an entire opinion on his post-season play. You said his postseason flops were not even a blip on the radar and when you're talking about throwing 100 million at someone, which is what its going to take, I think the fact that he has been terrible in the postseason for two straight seasons after dominating in the regular season has to be part of the conversation.
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby Yoda » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:12 am

RedSoxNation04 wrote:I said I had a concern about his performance, not that I was basing an entire opinion on his post-season play. You said his postseason flops were not even a blip on the radar and when you're talking about throwing 100 million at someone, which is what its going to take, I think the fact that he has been terrible in the postseason for two straight seasons after dominating in the regular season has to be part of the conversation.


Really? But I suppose the Sox spending $100+ mil on one DiceK who had 0 post season experience was completely acceptable. Let alone 0 IP in MLB.

But sure. Why not. Let's just cherry pick 5 of 260 total games he has pitched in his 9 year career as the entire basis for his future performance. Makes a lot of sense to me.
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:51 am

Yoda wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:I said I had a concern about his performance, not that I was basing an entire opinion on his post-season play. You said his postseason flops were not even a blip on the radar and when you're talking about throwing 100 million at someone, which is what its going to take, I think the fact that he has been terrible in the postseason for two straight seasons after dominating in the regular season has to be part of the conversation.


Really? But I suppose the Sox spending $100+ mil on one DiceK who had 0 post season experience was completely acceptable. Let alone 0 IP in MLB.

But sure. Why not. Let's just cherry pick 5 of 260 total games he has pitched in his 9 year career as the entire basis for his future performance. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Is CC a great pitcher? Yes. Has he been terrible in the postseason when its counted? Yes. Should that be a point of concern and something to consider before throwing 100+ million at him? Yes. Is it an ENTIRE opinion about the guy? Obviously not - that's not what I said so don't mince words here. If the Sox were going after him, I would feel the same way. Is it a reason to not sign him, no, but like I said several posts back in response to bombers' post, you can't sit here and say its not even a blip on the radar.

And, if you want to use Matsuzaka as an argument, you picked the wrong guy to argue with. I've never sat here anywhere in these forums and praised his performance - if anything, he's been a disappointment in big games. His postseason stats are terrible and frankly, he survives games more than anything. He was a huge risk and still is. 18 wins is nice, but you only have to look at his splits, which I don't have to tell you, to see the real story.
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:53 am

RedSoxNation04 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:and ultimately, that will be part of the continued problem in NY...


Sabathia has thrown 25 career postseason innings. Basing your opinion of a player on a 25-inning frame is the real problem. :-°

I said I had a concern about his performance, not that I was basing an entire opinion on his post-season play. You said his postseason flops were not even a blip on the radar and when you're talking about throwing 100 million at someone, which is what its going to take, I think the fact that he has been terrible in the postseason for two straight seasons after dominating in the regular season has to be part of the conversation.


No, it's not part of the conversation. Not for anyone who understands that putting such a small sample size, no matter what the situation, under the microscope is meaningless. What exactly are you trying to insinuate here? That he's a choker? He can't pitch in a big game? Or something else? I'm not following.
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby Yoda » Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:56 am

RedSoxNation04 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:I said I had a concern about his performance, not that I was basing an entire opinion on his post-season play. You said his postseason flops were not even a blip on the radar and when you're talking about throwing 100 million at someone, which is what its going to take, I think the fact that he has been terrible in the postseason for two straight seasons after dominating in the regular season has to be part of the conversation.


Really? But I suppose the Sox spending $100+ mil on one DiceK who had 0 post season experience was completely acceptable. Let alone 0 IP in MLB.

But sure. Why not. Let's just cherry pick 5 of 260 total games he has pitched in his 9 year career as the entire basis for his future performance. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Is CC a great pitcher? Yes. Has he been terrible in the postseason when its counted? Yes. Should that be a point of concern and something to consider before throwing 100+ million at him? Yes. Is it an ENTIRE opinion about the guy? Obviously not - that's not what I said so don't mince words here. If the Sox were going after him, I would feel the same way. Is it a reason to not sign him, no, but like I said several posts back in response to bombers' post, you can't sit here and say its not even a blip on the radar.

And, if you want to use Matsuzaka as an argument, you picked the wrong guy to argue with. I've never sat here anywhere in these forums and praised his performance - if anything, he's been a disappointment in big games. His postseason stats are terrible and frankly, he survives games more than anything. He was a huge risk and still is. 18 wins is nice, but you only have to look at his splits, which I don't have to tell you, to see the real story.


My math is a bit fuzzy right now but what % is 5 out of 260?
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:11 am

RedSoxNation04 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:I said I had a concern about his performance, not that I was basing an entire opinion on his post-season play. You said his postseason flops were not even a blip on the radar and when you're talking about throwing 100 million at someone, which is what its going to take, I think the fact that he has been terrible in the postseason for two straight seasons after dominating in the regular season has to be part of the conversation.


Really? But I suppose the Sox spending $100+ mil on one DiceK who had 0 post season experience was completely acceptable. Let alone 0 IP in MLB.

But sure. Why not. Let's just cherry pick 5 of 260 total games he has pitched in his 9 year career as the entire basis for his future performance. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Is CC a great pitcher? Yes. Has he been terrible in the postseason when its counted? Yes. Should that be a point of concern and something to consider before throwing 100+ million at him? Yes. Is it an ENTIRE opinion about the guy? Obviously not - that's not what I said so don't mince words here. If the Sox were going after him, I would feel the same way. Is it a reason to not sign him, no, but like I said several posts back in response to bombers' post, you can't sit here and say its not even a blip on the radar.


When it's counted??

So when Sabathia went 11-2 with a 1.65 ERA over the final 2 months of the season to help Milwaukee scrape themselves into the playoffs, that didn't "count?" Only the 25 postseason innings he's pitched in his career?

Come on, dude. Anyone can have a great stretch of 25 innings. Anyone can have a terrible stretch for 25 innings. You can't cherry pick a sample size that small and call it cause for concern. Just as you can't take a sample size that small and inflate someone, like many do with Beckett. It's 25 innings. No, 25 innings is not a blip on my radar, and I pray it isn't on the Yankees radar, otherwise we are going to have problems.
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby RedSoxNation04 » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:49 am

Yoda wrote:
RedSoxNation04 wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Really? But I suppose the Sox spending $100+ mil on one DiceK who had 0 post season experience was completely acceptable. Let alone 0 IP in MLB.

But sure. Why not. Let's just cherry pick 5 of 260 total games he has pitched in his 9 year career as the entire basis for his future performance. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Is CC a great pitcher? Yes. Has he been terrible in the postseason when its counted? Yes. Should that be a point of concern and something to consider before throwing 100+ million at him? Yes. Is it an ENTIRE opinion about the guy? Obviously not - that's not what I said so don't mince words here. If the Sox were going after him, I would feel the same way. Is it a reason to not sign him, no, but like I said several posts back in response to bombers' post, you can't sit here and say its not even a blip on the radar.

And, if you want to use Matsuzaka as an argument, you picked the wrong guy to argue with. I've never sat here anywhere in these forums and praised his performance - if anything, he's been a disappointment in big games. His postseason stats are terrible and frankly, he survives games more than anything. He was a huge risk and still is. 18 wins is nice, but you only have to look at his splits, which I don't have to tell you, to see the real story.


My math is a bit fuzzy right now but what % is 5 out of 260?

Let me clear that up for you...it's roughly 2%... ;-D

Look, I"m not going to continue this argument because obviously we don't see it the same way. It's merely my opinion and if you see it differently, that's fine with me.
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Re: Why does Cashman still have a job?

Postby Yoda » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:53 am

RedSoxNation04 wrote:
Yoda wrote:My math is a bit fuzzy right now but what % is 5 out of 260?

Let me clear that up for you...it's roughly 2%... ;-D

Look, I"m not going to continue this argument because obviously we don't see it the same way. It's merely my opinion and if you see it differently, that's fine with me.


It's actually less than 2%

I'm just surprised that someone would discount a player's value based on less than 2% of their total games played in his career.
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