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Clemens named in Mitchell report

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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby jfg » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:16 pm

Only thing is, in any business I think there is an unwritten agreement, probably even written that breaking US law is breaking the company law. I think every legitimate business expects their employees to be on the right side of the law. Like I said, I'd have no problem with everybody who have been exposed as cheaters to have their stats wiped. That's probably impossible so they shouldn't do anything.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:18 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:I agree...that is the problem. That's the entire problem. People take these records very seriously. My point is....they shouldn't. They've never been completely clean and they never will. Athletes will always look for a competitive advantage. It's a fact of life. They will strive for the records, the fame and the money.

People have the preconceived notion that these record books were squeaky clean before Bonds came along. It's simply not true. The bottom line is, you can't compare players from different eras based on these raw numbers. It's not fair to compare Aaron's HR total to Ruth's, just as it's not fair to compare Bonds' to Aaron's.

I understand that the records are huge in baseball. My point is that they shouldn't be.


I just thought of this and believe that there is a lot of truth to it but how about the fact that Bonds was proven to be a cheater as he was breaking the records?? I obviously wasn't around when Ruth and Aaron reached their marks but were their indiscretions known at the time?? I would think not. That has to play a part in this. Ruth and Aaron had already cemented their legacies long before the other stuff came out.


To be honest, I have no idea. It happened over a decade before I was born. But I would assume, as you, that it was not widely known. It is a good point, and probably does play a role in this situation. However, it still doesn't justify it. If he did it, he did it, whether we find out today or 30 years from now. Good point, though...one I hadn't thought of.

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
I don't mean it in a negative way at all. In a literal sense, you are defending him and are therefore an apologist. I have said some things against Bonds but that doesn't make me a hater. That was basically my point.


Understood and agreed. There have definitely been generalizations made by many on both sides of the argument that are really unneeded. I, myself, will try to be more careful in this regard.


Whatever, apologist.

Signed,

Hater.

:-D :-D


:-)
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:23 pm

jfg wrote:Only thing is, in any business I think there is an unwritten agreement, probably even written that breaking US law is breaking the company law. I think every legitimate business expects their employees to be on the right side of the law. Like I said, I'd have no problem with everybody who have been exposed as cheaters to have their stats wiped. That's probably impossible so they shouldn't do anything.


I'm not aware of any such agreement, but if MLB is going to make PED use a punishable offense, they need to detail that. Otherwise, the MLB would have jurisdiction to punish a player for breaking ANY law at ANY time. Again, would you consider it okay if a player was banned from the HOF for a speeding ticket? Or having his records removed for tax evasion?

MLB has got to have a policy in place. All the other sports did. MLB brought the problem onto itself by allowing it to happen. It doesn't excuse what the players did, but it doesn't give them the right to make Bonds out to be the bad guy, either.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby jfg » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:30 pm

It's been seen in sports lately that it's discretionary when handing out punishment for breaking the law. It's been case by case in football and basketball. That would be the case in most businesses. If you break the law it is up for review on how you will be punished.

I agree, a better policy needs to be in place, but, US laws were broken and they weren't minor laws. I think the MLB has the right to do whatever they want. The first question is, do they want to give trials to all of these players and that's most likely a resounding no. The second question is, do they need to go to court to wipe stats off the book and I'd say that's also a resounding no.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:32 pm

jfg wrote:It's been seen in sports lately that it's discretionary when handing out punishment for breaking the law. It's been case by case in football and basketball. That would be the case in most businesses. If you break the law it is up for review on how you will be punished.

I agree, a better policy needs to be in place, but, US laws were broken and they weren't minor laws. I think the MLB has the right to do whatever they want. The first question is, do they want to give trials to all of these players and that's most likely a resounding no. The second question is, do they need to go to court to wipe stats off the book and I'd say that's also a resounding no.


Lofunzo brought this up to me once before as well, citing Pacman Jones as an example. The difference is, the NFL has a personal conduct policy in which they detail breaking the law as punishable offense. Here is a link to the NFL's Personal Conduct Policy:

http://www.nflpa.org/RulesAndRegs/ConductPolicy.aspx

To my knowledge, MLB has no such policy. That's why the NFL has the right to take action against criminals in its league. They have a policy. ;-)
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby Lofunzo » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:41 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:I agree...that is the problem. That's the entire problem. People take these records very seriously. My point is....they shouldn't. They've never been completely clean and they never will. Athletes will always look for a competitive advantage. It's a fact of life. They will strive for the records, the fame and the money.

People have the preconceived notion that these record books were squeaky clean before Bonds came along. It's simply not true. The bottom line is, you can't compare players from different eras based on these raw numbers. It's not fair to compare Aaron's HR total to Ruth's, just as it's not fair to compare Bonds' to Aaron's.

I understand that the records are huge in baseball. My point is that they shouldn't be.


I just thought of this and believe that there is a lot of truth to it but how about the fact that Bonds was proven to be a cheater as he was breaking the records?? I obviously wasn't around when Ruth and Aaron reached their marks but were their indiscretions known at the time?? I would think not. That has to play a part in this. Ruth and Aaron had already cemented their legacies long before the other stuff came out.


To be honest, I have no idea. It happened over a decade before I was born. But I would assume, as you, that it was not widely known. It is a good point, and probably does play a role in this situation. However, it still doesn't justify it. If he did it, he did it, whether we find out today or 30 years from now. Good point, though...one I hadn't thought of.


It makes sense to me. As we have seen, it often takes a lot to change how we think of someone or something. I had never really heard anything negative in this regard about Ruth or Aaron until a few years ago when the Bonds stuff hit the fan. Up until then, I always thought of Ruth as the best slugger ever with Aaron being the HR King. I have felt that way for as long as I can remember and I am 3 months shy of 37 so we aren't just talking about a few years here. I would think that we have no choice but to look at Bonds differently, either positively or negatively, because we watched it unfold. That could definitely explain why there is so much more outrage, at least in part.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:44 pm

At the same time, Aaron didn't really need any more fuel added to the fire when he was chasing Ruth....with the racial tension going on during that time. I honestly don't know a whole lot about it and it would be hard for me to since I wasn't around. I'm not sure when Aaron was really accepted or when his legacy was cemented. It's certainly an interesting question, though.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby HOOTIE » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:15 am

Probably the saddest thing of this whole thread, is the general lack of baseball history displayed. Bonds or Clemens didn't invent (cheating) in MLB. Of my years in the Cafe, lack of history seems to be the biggest negative in certain threads.
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby Whisp » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:40 am

smoltz doesn't need steroids, he is a god in human form.
C-MMontero/Iannetta 1B-Hosmer 2B-Kendrick 3B-MiCabrera/Rolen SS-Rollins
CI-IDavis MI-RRoberts OF-Bruce/Crisp/Hunter/Cain/Rios
SP-Sabathia/ClLee/Wainwright/Pineda/Hellickson/JSantana
RP-Putz/Santiago/Rodney/Lidge/Clippard
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Re: Clemens named in Mitchell report

Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:41 am

kentx12 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:Clemens should not be in the HOF. Neither should Bonds or Mark.


Of course they should.



No they shouldnt be. They were cheaters. They used an illegal drug to gain an unfair advantage that other players who stayed clean didnt have. Gammons said today that it was a shame that people who did there job right had to look over there shoulder for someone trying to take there jobs that were dirty. It truely is a shame.

I've never understood this.

Do you believe that everyone in the HOF is clean? Because I think you'd have to believe that to think the way you think.
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