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The Mitchell Investigation

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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby AcidRock23 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:19 am

Steroids are a regular treatment prescribed for strains and sprains. While they might be perhaps considered a 'treatment with benefits', as it were, they still have medical use for treating the sort minor injuries that a lot of players would likely run into. I am not sure that it excuses the sort of grey market that these guys were seemingly exploiting but if I were to blow out my elbow playing tennis, I might go to the doctor and, if it were not better in 6-8 weeks, he would likely prescribe a steroid injection to speed the healing of the injury. I think that any 'investigation' of these guys would also benefit from exploring who tweaked what when and what they were doing in terms of their health. A lot of what's coming out sounds extremely seedy, since they are shooting up in apartments or the bathroom stall w/ Jose Canseco, but may be rooted in the wear and tear of competing in a 162 game season. :-?
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Havok1517 » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:00 am

As I brought up in an eralier post, Clemens and his lawyer are calling it slander while thinking about legal action.

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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby The Loveable Losers » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:11 am

mweir145 wrote:
cordscords wrote:IF I understand the report correctly:

He will be found not guilty on the perjury charges. According to several sources, Bonds insists that he was not knowingly taking steroids when Greg Anderson provided them. Bonds answered all questions directed towards him truthfully during that time period.

However he continued to take steroids after he found out, telling people that they were healing his arthritis. The grand jury failed to ask Bonds questions outside of the information that Greg Anderson had provided. This of course meaning that Bonds was telling the truth at the time.

Yes...it appears that Bonds actually did cover himself very well during his grand jury testimony. I still think perjury is going to be a very hard thing to prove for the prosecution there.


I can't find the legal term for it but I remember the argument being made that they don't have to prove that Greg Anderson told him he was taking steroids to prove perjury. As long as it's impossible that he didn't know what he was taking that's all they need to prove. Basically the argument is that if he got something with a nod and a wink that was described by the Anderson as 'flax seed oil' (with Anderson even making air quotes while saying it ;) ) and that he knew what he was being given even though Anderson didn't tell him explicitly then he did commit perjury. You know me though mweir...I'm not interested in seeing Bonds convicted here. I'm just pointing out a legal argument that I'd heard. They used a very specific legal term for this too...I'd love to hear it from one of the lawyers out there.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby moochman » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:40 am

How does Bud Selig keep his job? The intergrity of the sport is eroding and a supposedly important investigation is released about the cancer that he and his cronies were implicit in growing and he doesn't take the time to read the darn thing? Way to earn your money Bud.

I like the baseball driven expose that mentions several times that we either shouldn't waste time digging into the past (Mark McGuirre strategy?) and that the steroid era is over. How nice and tidy. We can all go home now, nothing to see here.
I especially love how Mitchell mentions that the owners, GMs, and Commish were all a party to PED abuse but still insists that is should be left to a person who he implies helped this happen, who also hired him, to mete out any punishments that result from this investigation. He never once said that the commish himself should have to pay a price for the mess he help create. Or that mlb need to restructure the commish office.

And what a monsterous waste this investigation turned out to be. Give us a list of name mostly to have been indicated before as being involved or names from a former clubhouse guys. Did we get $40 million dollars worth from MItchell? I thought that the time and money put into it would promise to deliver. Many posters in the Cafe could have found out most of this info without ever leaving their pc.
I expected little from this baseball led self-investigation and wasn't disappointed. It's a shame that mlb will try and leverage this waste into closure to the steriod era.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Matthias » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:44 am

The Loveable Losers wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
cordscords wrote:IF I understand the report correctly:

He will be found not guilty on the perjury charges. According to several sources, Bonds insists that he was not knowingly taking steroids when Greg Anderson provided them. Bonds answered all questions directed towards him truthfully during that time period.

However he continued to take steroids after he found out, telling people that they were healing his arthritis. The grand jury failed to ask Bonds questions outside of the information that Greg Anderson had provided. This of course meaning that Bonds was telling the truth at the time.

Yes...it appears that Bonds actually did cover himself very well during his grand jury testimony. I still think perjury is going to be a very hard thing to prove for the prosecution there.

I can't find the legal term for it but I remember the argument being made that they don't have to prove that Greg Anderson told him he was taking steroids to prove perjury. As long as it's impossible that he didn't know what he was taking that's all they need to prove. Basically the argument is that if he got something with a nod and a wink that was described by the Anderson as 'flax seed oil' (with Anderson even making air quotes while saying it ;) ) and that he knew what he was being given even though Anderson didn't tell him explicitly then he did commit perjury. You know me though mweir...I'm not interested in seeing Bonds convicted here. I'm just pointing out a legal argument that I'd heard. They used a very specific legal term for this too...I'd love to hear it from one of the lawyers out there.

Maybe, "constructive knowledge" is the term you're looking for?
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby The Loveable Losers » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:57 am

Matthias wrote:Maybe, "constructive knowledge" is the term you're looking for?


Nope, not that one although you gave me the chance to learn something today. ;-D
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Matthias » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:05 pm

mweir145 wrote:Why do you think you know that he only took it once? Because McNamee didn't say anything about being directly involved in giving him any of the stuff? Come on, I mean, there has to be a reason that Grimsley also specifically named him, also, right? Just because it's not on paper here, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean he couldn't have acquired drugs through some other process.

Pettite is also the one who worked out with Clemens and McNamee and supposedly took HGH, there's no reason to feel sorry for him. He kept McNamee on for years as a trainer, so even if the guy wasn't actually giving him stuff, why would you stay with a known steroid dealer like him if you cared about looking "clean?" He's just as "guilty" as any of the others in there, and if he didn't want his name to be up in headlines like it was, he probably shouldn't have hung around with the people he did.

I don't KNOW Pettite only took it once. But he's only in the report as have taking it once. And he showed concern about that once... he asked McNamee when he was to be asked if he had ever been taking PEDs, what should he say?

But that's not really the point. The point is that people are judging players based off of their inclusion in their report. Just that. And the media is doing a terrible job (as in, not at all) differentiating between players who are in the report because the report said they took something to rehab and players who are in the report because the report said they took something to change their entire career.

If you wanted to judge people based off of suspicion and innuendo, there would be a lot more names up there in the media.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Yoda » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:11 pm

jfg wrote:
moochman wrote:If Bud Selig's name isn't first on the list of Steroid abusers than this investigation swung and missed.


Yep. They need to go after the ringleader and the ringleader is not Barry Bonds, it's Bud Selig along with ownership. These are the guys who need to be in court for allowing their employees to use illegal drugs while profiting from it. It will be great for baseball if the report takes down Selig. It's ridiculous that the guy who oversaw the steroid era is still holding the position.


Couldn't agree more. He was following Sosa/Mc around like a puppy dog while enjoying all the increased revenue/profit knowing that there was rampant steroid abuse in baseball. He should be the first to go but he has deep pockets so of course they will excuse him.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby acsguitar » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:24 pm

Canseco is saying he was surprised Arod isn't on the list.

Seriously I can't see a guy like Arod with 0 career injuries being on this list. But hey it seems that we will believe any wife beating, drug using, d bag these days.

BTW these "clubbies" who gave up names how long till they write a book. Not to say these names aren't real but its not like we have a lot of player testimony.
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Re: The Mitchell Investigation

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:52 pm

Yoda wrote:
jfg wrote:
moochman wrote:If Bud Selig's name isn't first on the list of Steroid abusers than this investigation swung and missed.


Yep. They need to go after the ringleader and the ringleader is not Barry Bonds, it's Bud Selig along with ownership. These are the guys who need to be in court for allowing their employees to use illegal drugs while profiting from it. It will be great for baseball if the report takes down Selig. It's ridiculous that the guy who oversaw the steroid era is still holding the position.


Couldn't agree more. He was following Sosa/Mc around like a puppy dog while enjoying all the increased revenue/profit knowing that there was rampant steroid abuse in baseball. He should be the first to go but he has deep pockets so of course they will excuse him.


So very true... I found a great post on Mariners board I frequent and since I can't say it any better, I'm going to quote it...

Yeah, MLB and the players’ union pretty much entirely ignored the entire issue of PEDs so long as the people using them were a pair of affable guys who helped bring baseball back from the brink of irrelevance.

I would not expect elite athletes to do anything other than search for ways to give themselves an edge; it is the responsibility of those who make the rules to keep those impulses in check.

If that didn’t happen, which it clearly didn’t in this case, the culpability lies far more (in my opinion) with the people responsible for making and enforcing the rules, rather than those who gave in to human nature and the promise of a big bump to their bank accounts.
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