Return to General Talk

This makes me mad

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Re: This makes me mad

Postby great gretzky » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:36 pm

It's kind of hard to use heroin or crack "recreationally" whereas millions of people are able to use alcohol in moderation. and the mere act of drinking the alcohol doesn't also bring with it attendant issues of HIV and Hepatitis transmission either...
great gretzky
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafeholic
Posts: 3762
(Past Year: -7)
Joined: 3 Jun 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Washington, DC

Re: This makes me mad

Postby Coppermine » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:39 pm

Do you think it costs more to provide a safe environment for this or to wage a war against it and treat the long and short term health effects of addiction?
If you're a battery, you're either working or you're dead....
Coppermine
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar

Posts: 8793
(Past Year: -47)
Joined: 6 Sep 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Pennsyltucky

Re: This makes me mad

Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:42 pm

great gretzky wrote:It's kind of hard to use heroin or crack "recreationally" whereas millions of people are able to use alcohol in moderation. and the mere act of drinking the alcohol doesn't also bring with it attendant issues of HIV and Hepatitis transmission either...


I believe that the term recreational drug refers to any drug that is not used for a medical purpose. I don't think that it has any positive connotation.

what term would you use?
Mookie4ever
Head Moderator
Head Moderator

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterHockey ModFootball ModMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 19019
(Past Year: -416)
Joined: 17 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Hakuna, Montana

Re: This makes me mad

Postby Madison » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:45 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Are those of you who are against this also against bars calling taxis so their patrons don't have to drive home drunk? Or, for a more apt comparison, against publicly funded 'safe-ride' programs that they have in many cities, especially around colleges?


Yes, I would be against public funding going for that purpose. If the bar picks up the tab for the cab, that's cool, but public funds should not go to it.

Also, it's not a good comparison, as one can get a ticket while being drunk in a bar. Public intoxication. They give those tickets out down here, and I've seen them handed out many, many times. Even had to take the breathalyzer myself while sitting in a bar on more than one occasion. And that's partaking in something that's legal 8-o ! This whole story is for something that's illegal! And they are shielding these idiots from being arrested. A HUGE difference in the two things, and not comparable.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 48715
(Past Year: -5140)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Re: This pisses me off

Postby Big Pimpin » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:51 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:If you are using the slippery slope argument then you are too late because you have to then take offence to it being legal to serve alcohol in bars.

The trouble I have is that the US is occupying the moral middle ground and throws darts at both sides. Some Muslim countries make serving alcohol illegal whereas some recreational drugs are legal in designated spots in the Netherlands.

The Muslims have the right to say "if we start down this road where does it end?" the US doesn't. Alcohol and recreational drugs are both destructive. The only difference here is that one is legal and one is not.


I understand your point but you're missing my issue. I don't see the drug use (and, as I stated earlier, I'm actually pro-legalization for most drugs) as being the beginning of the "slippery slope" here. My issue lies with state-sponsored (or at the very least state supported) tolerance of lawbreaking. Argue about the law all you want, but if it's on the books then there should be repercussions for breaking it, not "safe places" where you can go do it. My "Where does it end?" comment was related more to the tolerance of said lawbreaking than anything else. I have serious issues with that. It's almost like the "gateway drug" argument. Once we start tolerating minor offenses, then we start tolerating stuff that "isn't much worse" and the cycle just continues. Pretty soon we have anarchy.

At least if the heroin use was legal then these safe places could be commercially run and set up as moneymakers. I could see relating that to a bar, but not just giving people free passes to break laws that are on the books.
Big Pimpin
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
EditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb SupporterMatchup Meltdown ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 13223
(Past Year: -487)
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Building a metric. And being ignorable and stupid.

Re: This pisses me off

Postby StlSluggers » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:55 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:Alcohol and recreational drugs are both destructive. The only difference here is that one is legal and one is not.

Prohibition increased crime, murders, and suicide. Some would argue that the same must then be true for other substances, and by banning marijuana, cocaine, and heroine, we have actually created a crime-ridden, black market that pushes the users into a life of deprivation. Others would argue that the reason Prohibition failed was because the society had already become "addicted" to alcohol, and cutting it off was like going cold turkey on morphine. They would argue that banning those drugs now before a societal addiction has formed keeps the problem from getting out of hand as it has with alcohol.

I'm not saying either piece of logic is right or wrong. I'm just pointing out that alcohol's treatment in the US is as it is because history has proved that we're better off controlling it than banning it.
Image
Want an easy icon?
http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=133
All you have to do is beat a few guys at picking Sunday's winners.[/url]
StlSluggers
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterWeb Supporter
Posts: 14414
(Past Year: -302)
Joined: 24 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Parking in the gov't bldg @ 7th and Pine. It's only $3.00 on game day!

Re: This pisses me off

Postby Madison » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:58 pm

StlSluggers wrote: by banning marijuana, cocaine, and heroine, we have actually created a crime-ridden, black market that pushes the users into a life of deprivation.


I disagree. They chose to do that to themselves.

Oh dang, now we're back to expecting people to be responsible for their actions again, and we just can't have that.... ;-7

O:-)

:-D

;-)
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 48715
(Past Year: -5140)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Re: This makes me mad

Postby CheeseBeger » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:13 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Illegal and immoral are not one in the same. I don't think the decision to use drugs or not is any more of a moral choice than the decision to eat lunch at McDonald's or take a sandwich from home. I will always tolerate the breaking of laws that I feel are unjust laws. And, as Mookie mentioned, victims. Your comparison is like saying a police officer who lets someone off with a warning for going 70 in a 65 is the same as an officer who lets someone off with a warning for driving recklessly and causing an accident that seriously injures someone else.


Like usual I think Art nailed it on the head. I think on issues like this, the disconnect and disagreements always stem from your own version of morality. While many drugs and alcohol are detrimental to your health, this doesn't factor into my morality world view. I guess a good way to put it would that the ends justify the means.

The benefits from legalizing drug use would far outweigh the negatives, and I find opening an injection room to be of the same vein (like my pun? ;-D ). Drug use will be happening regardless and having a room like this open will not increase the amount of drug users so I find that to be negligible.

On the positive side as has been stated before and as the article mentions:
- It probably has significant economic benefits due to hospital visits
- Lowers the transmission of HIV and reduces the amount of needles on the streets
- Reduces drug related crime

It seems you have two choices
1) Have drug users on streets causing all sorts of ruckus

or

2) Realize the benefits of a reduction of the aforementioned ruckus.
2010 H2HWS Champion - Cleveland Clams
CheeseBeger
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Eagle EyeMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 1440
(Past Year: -273)
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: You don't need doubletalk! You need Bob Loblaw!

Re: This makes me mad

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:28 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Are those of you who are against this also against bars calling taxis so their patrons don't have to drive home drunk? Or, for a more apt comparison, against publicly funded 'safe-ride' programs that they have in many cities, especially around colleges?

I really don't think a single person is going to say, "Well, I wasn't ever going to do heroin when I thought I'd have to do it in my own house, but now that there is a room downtown that I can go to...pass me the needle." This won't create more drug users, it will create fewer drug users in alleys and parks.


I disagree. By telling someone that this is wrong because you'll screw up your life and hurt people, oh, but there's a place down the street where you can use it if you really want to. It's either wrong and should not be allowed, or it's ok.
Image
Omaha Red Sox
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle Eye
Posts: 11404
(Past Year: -14)
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Probably over there

Re: This makes me mad

Postby Coppermine » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:51 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Are those of you who are against this also against bars calling taxis so their patrons don't have to drive home drunk? Or, for a more apt comparison, against publicly funded 'safe-ride' programs that they have in many cities, especially around colleges?

I really don't think a single person is going to say, "Well, I wasn't ever going to do heroin when I thought I'd have to do it in my own house, but now that there is a room downtown that I can go to...pass me the needle." This won't create more drug users, it will create fewer drug users in alleys and parks.


I disagree. By telling someone that this is wrong because you'll screw up your life and hurt people, oh, but there's a place down the street where you can use it if you really want to. It's either wrong and should not be allowed, or it's ok.


By haven't we established that simply telling people "this is wrong because you'll screw up your life" has no effect whatsoever?
If you're a battery, you're either working or you're dead....
Coppermine
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar

Posts: 8793
(Past Year: -47)
Joined: 6 Sep 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Pennsyltucky

PreviousNext

Return to General Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests