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Why Roto over Points?

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Postby xeifrank » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:41 pm

TheRock wrote:Ok, I'll play devil's advocate...

In many ways points leagues offer more realism than roto. Look at some shortcomings of roto: a triple is worth no more than a base hit, grounding out is no different from striking out, walks accomplish nothing even though most of us know how valuable they can be. And really, steals worth as much as HR's and RBI's? Unless we played with that category, why on earth would anyone ever draft Dave Roberts to their fantasy squad?


Good post, but actually a triple in many cases is worth more than a single. Someone getting a triple is more likely to score a run or get an RBI than someone who got a single. Maybe not on every at bat, but over a larger sample size, it's worth more in roto. Same thing with a BB, you are on base and can score. I do agree with you that OPS is a better category than Average, but a little too difficult for most people to follow in the box scores. No system is perfect, each has it's flaws. I don't like the Saves category, as pitchers are often rewarded for pitching poorly. I would prefer a Save% category where blown saves are taken into consideration instead.

vr,

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Postby wkelly91 » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:33 pm

GOOD POST SCOOT!

:-)
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Postby stevelabny » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:04 pm

scoot...
yes my post is my opinion. good call. its always been a pet peeve of mine when people on the internet always preface everything with "IMHO". OF COURSE i'm stating MY opinion, and i am in no way humble. OF COURSE i tink I'm right. If I thought I was wrong, I would either change my mind, or be a complete ididot. OF COURSE my arguements are one-sided. How many people present both sides of a case when debating?

no, my ENTIRE post wasnt directed at you, have you read the the rest of the thread? there are many other people calling points more "realistic" I quoted your original post because it seemed like you werent understanding my points. So I dumbed them down for you, which has led you to call me rude, but then I continued talking to everyone else in the thread.

The "opinion" that most baseball fans think that Erros need to be redefined by MLB is also a FACT. Start another thread and take a poll.

In a moment of obvious hypocrisy, after telling me I just state opinions like if thats a bad thing, you then start ranting about my H2H team based on ASSUMPTIONS. (something that has even less value than an opinion) For the record, if you read my posts again, you will see that my H2H team I spoke of was a FOOTBALL team, starting off 0-4 was killer. In my next post I then explained how my hot, points-leading team cooled off, but rather than luck into other colder teams, kept losing (by playing teams just good enough to beat me each week) So all of you're assumptions are WRONG. Its also funny because anyone I'm the anti-trader. If anything, my one roto-weak spot is my inability to block trades that will benefit my opponents by offering similar trades. I draft to win not to make trades, and sometimes it hurts me.

I stand by my statement that points leagues make individual categories worthless. Doesnt matter how many obscure and ridiculous stats you add (again, see my original post in this thread, where I also say that adding all sorts of stats is pointless) If (if means this a hypothetical statement, do you know what those are?) Sexson is worth 100 points because of HRS and Pierre is worth 90 points because of steals. and Mueller is worth 80 points for batting average... there is NO reason to trade sexson for either of the other two in a points league (unless you think that they will put up more points over the rest of the season). In roto, you WILL make trades where you give up a more valuable player overall to get someone who helps in specific categories. This is why you see many stupid trade evaluation threads on this board where people want to veto trades that are "one-sided". Some people understand, some people don't. But in a points league, it REALLY does come down to "who is going to score more points the rest of the way" PERIOD. There is no strategy to trading the hot guy for the slumping guy that youre pretty sure will break out of it.

You talk about my point on how much a HR is worth but then proceed to MANGLE it and not understand it at all.
in roto a HR is just worth ONE HR. (along with the R and the RBI).
it doesnt need to be worth "more' than a hit (which will help BA and maybe R or RBI also) or a SB (which nowadays, is even rarer than a HR) (And for the sarcasm value...a TRIPLE is the hardest hit to get, check some stats)
why? because the average league you will only need 130 sbs to win the category, you need 750+ hrs to win the category, you will need 1100+ rbis to win the category, etc etc.
The "values" are already adjusted by how rare something is and
how many players are capable of doing them. The values are built into the system.

and my favorite uneducated comment in your post..."strikeouts do not give an oppurtunity to put someone on and if you didn't lnow there is a chance for a double play on a strikeout"
First, look..more rudeness from the guy who was so upset at mine. You can't have it both ways buddy, either you're offended by my sarcasm and snippiness or you want to partake in it. Not both.
Second...there is NOT a chance for a double play on a strikeout. If someone is caught stealing, thats THEIR fault or the maangers fault for calling a hit and run, not the hitters fault.
BUT if you want to be an a$$, fine... you CAN reach base on a strikeout. Try not to leave major loopholes in your dumba$$ statements.

I don't care what the MLB rulebook says when it comes to errors, they DON'T call a misplayed or lost flyball an error. And they should. PERIOD.

Also, I never said that a single is always worth more than a double.
I said that most of the time they have the SAME value, and there are instances where a single is preferable. Learn to READ what people write, UNDERSTAND what they mean, and not misinterpret their words completely to make youreself look smart.

Funny how you say you LIKE seeing me get "worked up" about your post as an insult to roto...which is something else I NEVER said, but in your very same post, you did accuse ME of being INSULTING TO EVERYONE WHO PLAYS H2H.

Wow. Assumptions, hypocrisy, misinterpretations, incorrect statements and failed sarcasm. I think this is the winner in the WORST INTERNET POST ever sweepstakes.
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Postby Captain Jack Sparrow » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:37 pm

Thanks for the input on my question guys! It took me a week to read it all but I have made up my mind....

This year I will be playing....


















One of each ;-D ;-D ;-D

I love my points league, but so many of you seem to like roto, that i need to give it another chance, now, to find a good roto league...
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Postby Scoot » Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:41 pm

stevelabny wrote:scoot...
yes my post is my opinion. good call. its always been a pet peeve of mine when people on the internet always preface everything with "IMHO". OF COURSE i'm stating MY opinion, and i am in no way humble. OF COURSE i tink I'm right. If I thought I was wrong, I would either change my mind, or be a complete ididot. OF COURSE my arguements are one-sided. How many people present both sides of a case when debating?

no, my ENTIRE post wasnt directed at you, have you read the the rest of the thread? there are many other people calling points more "realistic" I quoted your original post because it seemed like you werent understanding my points. So I dumbed them down for you, which has led you to call me rude, but then I continued talking to everyone else in the thread.

The "opinion" that most baseball fans think that Erros need to be redefined by MLB is also a FACT. Start another thread and take a poll.

In a moment of obvious hypocrisy, after telling me I just state opinions like if thats a bad thing, you then start ranting about my H2H team based on ASSUMPTIONS. (something that has even less value than an opinion) For the record, if you read my posts again, you will see that my H2H team I spoke of was a FOOTBALL team, starting off 0-4 was killer. In my next post I then explained how my hot, points-leading team cooled off, but rather than luck into other colder teams, kept losing (by playing teams just good enough to beat me each week) So all of you're assumptions are WRONG. Its also funny because anyone I'm the anti-trader. If anything, my one roto-weak spot is my inability to block trades that will benefit my opponents by offering similar trades. I draft to win not to make trades, and sometimes it hurts me.

I stand by my statement that points leagues make individual categories worthless. Doesnt matter how many obscure and ridiculous stats you add (again, see my original post in this thread, where I also say that adding all sorts of stats is pointless) If (if means this a hypothetical statement, do you know what those are?) Sexson is worth 100 points because of HRS and Pierre is worth 90 points because of steals. and Mueller is worth 80 points for batting average... there is NO reason to trade sexson for either of the other two in a points league (unless you think that they will put up more points over the rest of the season). In roto, you WILL make trades where you give up a more valuable player overall to get someone who helps in specific categories. This is why you see many stupid trade evaluation threads on this board where people want to veto trades that are "one-sided". Some people understand, some people don't. But in a points league, it REALLY does come down to "who is going to score more points the rest of the way" PERIOD. There is no strategy to trading the hot guy for the slumping guy that youre pretty sure will break out of it.

You talk about my point on how much a HR is worth but then proceed to MANGLE it and not understand it at all.
in roto a HR is just worth ONE HR. (along with the R and the RBI).
it doesnt need to be worth "more' than a hit (which will help BA and maybe R or RBI also) or a SB (which nowadays, is even rarer than a HR) (And for the sarcasm value...a TRIPLE is the hardest hit to get, check some stats)
why? because the average league you will only need 130 sbs to win the category, you need 750+ hrs to win the category, you will need 1100+ rbis to win the category, etc etc.
The "values" are already adjusted by how rare something is and
how many players are capable of doing them. The values are built into the system.

and my favorite uneducated comment in your post..."strikeouts do not give an oppurtunity to put someone on and if you didn't lnow there is a chance for a double play on a strikeout"
First, look..more rudeness from the guy who was so upset at mine. You can't have it both ways buddy, either you're offended by my sarcasm and snippiness or you want to partake in it. Not both.
Second...there is NOT a chance for a double play on a strikeout. If someone is caught stealing, thats THEIR fault or the maangers fault for calling a hit and run, not the hitters fault.
BUT if you want to be an a$$, fine... you CAN reach base on a strikeout. Try not to leave major loopholes in your dumba$$ statements.

I don't care what the MLB rulebook says when it comes to errors, they DON'T call a misplayed or lost flyball an error. And they should. PERIOD.

Also, I never said that a single is always worth more than a double.
I said that most of the time they have the SAME value, and there are instances where a single is preferable. Learn to READ what people write, UNDERSTAND what they mean, and not misinterpret their words completely to make youreself look smart.

Funny how you say you LIKE seeing me get "worked up" about your post as an insult to roto...which is something else I NEVER said, but in your very same post, you did accuse ME of being INSULTING TO EVERYONE WHO PLAYS H2H.

Wow. Assumptions, hypocrisy, misinterpretations, incorrect statements and failed sarcasm. I think this is the winner in the WORST INTERNET POST ever sweepstakes.


Were you not quoting me? If someone does that I take it as if they are speaking directly to me, and I would ASSUME (and safely) that most people would too. I didn't know you were playing the role of God in that post, but if I did know that you were speaking to everyone I would have understood but not changed anything. I suggest that try to be more clear on your audience, as you failed to do so.

Do you have the post or petitions from baseball fans that say they think that the rules for errors should be changed? :-? If you do I applaud you. But here is something for you, I am not going to do your job. If everyone thinks, and it has to be everyone, that the error rules should change then it is a fact but until then it is just an opinion you share with other people.

Assumptions??? I never said opinions were bad things you were assuming I was taking that tone. My point was that you state your opinions as if they were facts.
In regards to your H2H teams, I just replied to your post. If you conmingled you teams in repling to my post, maybe you should get your head out of your a$$. I am not going to distinguish your facts for you. Here is what you said verbatim...
Again, this isnt always true... I explained how I was in a H2H points league and was first in points, but winless through the first month of the season. Because EVERY week I scored the 2nd or 3rd most points for the week, but played the hottest team. Other cold teams would still get Ws playing colder teams. Then when my team cooled off, I still couldn't buy a win. Rare? yes. Unforgivable that its even possible? absolutely
That is what you wrote in a reply to me. You didn't quote yourself, you wrote that. And since we are on the topic of fantasy baseball....why would you be talking about fantasy football? The two scoring formats have almost nothing to do with each other except for the fact that you are playing a new weekly opponent. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

Misinterpretation.....(talk about misunderstaning)
I did not misunderstand your point that H2H players may think that HR=SB when it comes to roto scoring. I was commenting that both formats score homeruns similar and ,in fact they score sb similar also. H2H, sb=1. Roto, sb=1. And of course a triple is hardest hit to get but I will let you have the satisfaction of making that brilliant point.
I really don't care what you think about cats and maybe that is where you are getting confused. My point here was that baseball is a much bigger game than some of the traditional catergories that roto uses. I was also trying to point out that some statistics are harder to accumulate than others, even though rare, sb's are not as difficult a feat as hitting the ball out of say a 400 ft park.
As for your statement that in points leagues there is no strategy to trade a hot guy for a guy in a cold streak in hopes that he will turn it around....don't you have to evaluate the risk vs reward of this trade and how it would affect your team? So where else shall I point out strategy?
But thank you for the explaination on values.
BTW which stats are you refering to when you said obsure and ridiculous?


Incorrect statements....
(BTW there is a chance for a double play on a strikeout, but for some reason you think that there is not one)
I was simply asking if you recognized that a double play can happen on a strikeout. I was not trying to be rude, but take it as you want to take it. But grow some skin in the meantime.
You say If someone is caught stealing, thats THEIR fault or the maangers fault for calling a hit and run, not the hitters fault. but steveyboy, if the batter didn't strikeout the runner would be safe so they do have some blame (because if he walks both are safe!). Try not to leave loopholes in your argument jacka$$.

Your statement-I don't care what the MLB rulebook says when it comes to errors, they DON'T call a misplayed or lost flyball an error. And they should. PERIOD. is the most incorrect piece I have ever read. Did you even read the MLB rulebook?
ERRORS
10.13
An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases. NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.


Not once did I accuse you of presenting false information, even though you did, but you did so to me. But the above is a clear example of not knowing what you are talking about.

YES I did accuse you of insulting everyone that plays H2H because you did...H2H appeals to those with smaller attention spans who need immediate gratification..

I do not have to try to look smart, I know what I am and I know what I like. Originally I asked you what points you were trying to make and you followed with a long, condescending, insulting, and righteous, holier than thou post. Was it because I put more than one question mark on my question or was it because I said I was going to destroy your flimsy points, which they were. You know Wario, a simple answer in a friendly manner would have shut me up but obviously you are like wario, evil and mean mannered and do not know the meaning of friendly. Which is what I think the cafe is a symbol of ;-), It is a medium for friendly baseball fans to get together for something they have in common, Fantasy baseball. no matter which way they play.

Don't take this the wrong way, because if you feel the need to reply to this please do what you want but..
good luck and enjoy the upcoming baseball season....
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Postby Scoot » Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:46 pm

stevelabny wrote:Wow. Assumptions, hypocrisy, misinterpretations, incorrect statements and failed sarcasm. I think this is the winner in the WORST INTERNET POST ever sweepstakes.



What did I win? I didn't even know I was entered in the sweepstakes!
















This is truly a joke........

:-B
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Postby stevelabny » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:31 pm

Scoot wrote:Were you not quoting me? If someone does that I take it as if they are speaking directly to me, and I would ASSUME (and safely) that most people would too. I didn't know you were playing the role of God in that post, but if I did know that you were speaking to everyone I would have understood but not changed anything. I suggest that try to be more clear on your audience, as you failed to do so.


Um, is this serious? Or are you just purposely trying to get a reaction again? I quoted you. I responded to each point. And then then my post continued. By your own admission, you never mentioned that points is more "real" but clearly others did in the thread, so how can you think I was directing the comment to YOU?
The thread involves more people than just you. I only stopped to quote you specifically because you seemed to take issue with some of my comments.

Scoot wrote:My point was that you state your opinions as if they were facts.


How do I do that? By not prefacing it with IN MY OPINION? If someone can't tell the difference between an opinion and a fact, theyre a moron. Should I dumb-down every post I make?

Scoot wrote:That is what you wrote in a reply to me. You didn't quote yourself, you wrote that. And since we are on the topic of fantasy baseball....why would you be talking about fantasy football? The two scoring formats have almost nothing to do with each other except for the fact that you are playing a new weekly opponent. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.


No, I made a compaison between one H2H league and another H2H league. That's valid. I stated the first post I brought it up that it was a football league. If you don't understand that you should only continue to reply to a thread if you've read all the previous posts, I can't help you. It is common practice to read every post in a thread before commenting. Then you won't take comments out of context and not understand them.

Scoot wrote:I really don't care what you think about cats and maybe that is where you are getting confused. My point here was that baseball is a much bigger game than some of the traditional catergories that roto uses. I was also trying to point out that some statistics are harder to accumulate than others, even though rare, sb's are not as difficult a feat as hitting the ball out of say a 400 ft park.


Ok, lets look at this from a FACT point of view. How many HRs were hit in the majors last year? How many steals were there? Therefore, STEALING A BASE IS HARDER TO DO THAN HITTING A HOMERUN. THATS A FACT. and saying you "don't care" what I think about cats when part of my point is that going beyond the standard 5x5 cats does NOTHING to make the game better is a genius move. I don't care about anything you say either. NYAH NYAH. I know you are but what am I? How childish.

Scoot wrote:As for your statement that in points leagues there is no strategy to trade a hot guy for a guy in a cold streak in hopes that he will turn it around....don't you have to evaluate the risk vs reward of this trade and how it would affect your team? So where else shall I point out strategy?


Deciding that the hot guy will cool down and the cold guy will warm up isnt brain surgery. Deciding if you can trade a 40+ hrs guy for a 20+ steals guy is a much tougher decision and study of the standings and team setups.

Scoot wrote:Your statement-I don't care what the MLB rulebook says when it comes to errors, they DON'T call a misplayed or lost flyball an error. And they should. PERIOD. is the most incorrect piece I have ever read. Did you even read the MLB rulebook?
ERRORS
10.13
An error shall be charged for each misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) which prolongs the time at bat of a batter or which prolongs the life of a runner, or which permits a runner to advance one or more bases. NOTE (1) Slow handling of the ball which does not involve mechanical misplay shall not be construed as an error. NOTE (2) It is not necessary that the fielder touch the ball to be charged with an error. If a ground ball goes through a fielder's legs or a pop fly falls untouched and in the scorer's judgment the fielder could have handled the ball with ordinary effort, an error shall be charged.


See, now I KNOW you're being a troll. Have you ever watched baseball? When an outfielder loses a fly ball in the sun/lights and it falls 15 feet from him, the official scorers DO NOT give him an error. This is why I said that I don't care what the rule book says, thry DON'T call a misplayed ball an error. THEY = OFFICIAL SCORERS. How do you know I meant they as official scorers and not the rulebook, first: the rulebook isnt PLURAL. second, I just said that I didnt care what the rulebook said, third, I made the offcial scorer point in my previous post.

Scoot wrote:YES I did accuse you of insulting everyone that plays H2H because you did...H2H appeals to those with smaller attention spans who need immediate gratification..


so because I said h2h is appealing to people with short attention spans, it means that EVERYONE who plays it has a short attention span? all dogs are animals, therefore all animals are dogs, huh? Other h2h players might play h2h out of ignorance, or not having a better alernative. Also, some who suffer from short attention spans will tell you that its not a bad thing. So again, if you're going to say that you comment about my whole post being an opinion didn't mean it was a bad thing and I was assuming that. Then apply it to yourself also. You really like fighting both sides of an arguement dont you?
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In thread Poll

Postby wkelly91 » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:07 pm

Which one of these gentlemen are more condescending, arrogant, and hatefull.


A) Scoot

B) Stevelabny



I will place the first vote...........B :-t
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Postby stevelabny » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:25 pm

now look...
if you want to call me arrogant and condescending, go right ahead...
but HATEFUL?
sheesh
what the hell did I do to you? or even Scoot.
save HATEFUL for people who bomb people, or start wars, or other forms of actual HATE.
I hardly think being a sarcastic prick on a fantasy baseball message board qualifies me.
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Postby wkelly91 » Wed Feb 04, 2004 7:33 pm

stevelabny wrote:now look...
if you want to call me arrogant and condescending, go right ahead...
but HATEFUL?
sheesh
what the hell did I do to you? or even Scoot.
save HATEFUL for people who bomb people, or start wars, or other forms of actual HATE.
I hardly think being a sarcastic prick on a fantasy baseball message board qualifies me.


I stand corrected...sarcastic prick is more appropriate. !+)
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