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Postby Coppermine » Wed May 02, 2007 1:32 pm

knapplc wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:The answer is not to have the media stop covering stories like VT and Columbine, but rather a more mature audience that views these stories without the narcissistic need to copy-cat them.


Yeah, but there's no way to control that and if the answer is censoring the media, then while some people see it as a step forward, I see that as 10 steps back.


Of course, stopping the media from doing their job would be catastrophic to the nation and the world. I simply advocate a smarter, more mature society.


That would be great; too bad it really can't be forced, legislated or otherwise possible.

We could use bats. :-D


Baseball or Vampire? :-b
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Postby knapplc » Wed May 02, 2007 1:33 pm

Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:The answer is not to have the media stop covering stories like VT and Columbine, but rather a more mature audience that views these stories without the narcissistic need to copy-cat them.


Yeah, but there's no way to control that and if the answer is censoring the media, then while some people see it as a step forward, I see that as 10 steps back.


Of course, stopping the media from doing their job would be catastrophic to the nation and the world. I simply advocate a smarter, more mature society.


That would be great; too bad it really can't be forced, legislated or otherwise possible.

We could use bats. :-D


Baseball or Vampire? :-b


I was thinking baseball, but if we could train vampire bats that would be sweet!
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Postby Coppermine » Wed May 02, 2007 1:36 pm

knapplc wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
knapplc wrote:The answer is not to have the media stop covering stories like VT and Columbine, but rather a more mature audience that views these stories without the narcissistic need to copy-cat them.


Yeah, but there's no way to control that and if the answer is censoring the media, then while some people see it as a step forward, I see that as 10 steps back.


Of course, stopping the media from doing their job would be catastrophic to the nation and the world. I simply advocate a smarter, more mature society.


That would be great; too bad it really can't be forced, legislated or otherwise possible.

We could use bats. :-D


Baseball or Vampire? :-b


I was thinking baseball, but if we could train vampire bats that would be sweet!


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Postby Art Vandelay » Wed May 02, 2007 4:57 pm

great gretzky wrote:well first of all, its clearly not "reporting," as its a column, the end column which is almost always an op-ed piece. And I think the narcissim thing bears repeating because it seems that lost in these discussions is that these extreme narcissists almost always hate themselves (at least when expressed as mass murder rather than serial murder).


Even if the end result is less reportage and more an opinion column, reporting was clearly something that he did quite a bit of. We may be working with a couple of different definitions of "reporting" here, but most good journalism--opinion, columns, or reportage--involves reporting. This guy has apparently gone all over the country reporting and researching this, and his thesis essentially comes down to: mass murderers and serial killers have issues and egos.
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Postby Madison » Wed May 02, 2007 5:10 pm

josebach wrote:Nice post. There are a lot of parallels between violence and morality as well, which is why I get so perturbed when I hear a certain sect discussing how immoral society is becoming. I personally don't believe people are any less moral now than they were 20, 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. Morality is a VERY relative thing. Of course there are a couple people here who ADAMANTLY disagree with me on this. ;-)


I'd be one of them and all you've got to do to see the proof is check out the generation of kids out there. Obviously it's not every single kid, but the majority have zero morals and/or ethics whatsoever. Kids in the old days respected anyone older than them, now they respect no one (just as one of many examples).


Anyway, to get back on topic, there are more of these types of killings out there simply because people are not happy in the world. They get everything handed to them on a silver platter and/or they feel "entitled" to getting things they should have been earning. So they are mad at the world and want to go out with a bang. How does one do that? Kill a bunch of people. Who's going to write a story and how big of a story would it be if some kid quietly killed himself in his own home because he wasn't taught how the real world works?
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Postby great gretzky » Wed May 02, 2007 7:33 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
great gretzky wrote:well first of all, its clearly not "reporting," as its a column, the end column which is almost always an op-ed piece. And I think the narcissim thing bears repeating because it seems that lost in these discussions is that these extreme narcissists almost always hate themselves (at least when expressed as mass murder rather than serial murder).


Even if the end result is less reportage and more an opinion column, reporting was clearly something that he did quite a bit of. We may be working with a couple of different definitions of "reporting" here, but most good journalism--opinion, columns, or reportage--involves reporting. This guy has apparently gone all over the country reporting and researching this, and his thesis essentially comes down to: mass murderers and serial killers have issues and egos.


Be that as it may, one would say an opinion column is more stilted to the writer's opinion than on hard facts.

Second of all, I think his point is relevant and worthy of being broached, if for no other reason, people know they have issues, but most typically don't necessarily equate narcissim with depression or psychosis (which serves as shorthand in discourse for screwed up). I also think the implicit point, which is also worthy of being brought up is--what is the solution? The most overriding cause of this is the narcissim, and the other factors facilitate their crimes, but don't necessarily cause it. Furthermore,the solution would seem to be to as Manson says "listen to them" etc., but how does one accomplish that, without feeding into it? How does one force oneself into someone who retreats entirely unto themselves.

You may have not appreciated the column, but not everyone will be as informed as you. I mean the most respected newspaper around (well, maybe not anymore), the New York Times is written at a fourth-grade level. Magazines like Time have to appeal, inform, and provke thought from a wide swath of the population. Thus, I thought the article was worthy, as people tend to get distracted on causes in times like these, be they movies, music, video games, what have you, when in reality its a mental problem, but one that doesn't necessarily jump at you as indicative of something like this. When most people hear narcissist, they think of someone so in love with themselves. Not someone who has love and loathing so intertwined they would kill themselves over it--that runs opposite to what the connotation of "narcissist" is in my mind anyway.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Wed May 02, 2007 7:59 pm

Yeah...I guess it just seems like a lot of time and wasted energy went into determining that the kind of people that do this are narcissistic. There are many factors contributing to any cases where people go on a murderous rampage or become serial killers, trying to pin-point one thing as the cause seems foolish to me. The guy lists three cases of mass murder, and shows one way in which they were similar, then tries to peg that as why they went bad. That's like saying "Albert Pujols is a great baseball player, Alfonso Soriano is a great baseball player, and Alex Rodriguez is a great baseball player. Clearly having a first name that starts with the letter 'A' is a defining indicator of who will be a great baseball player."
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Postby great gretzky » Wed May 02, 2007 8:04 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Yeah...I guess it just seems like a lot of time and wasted energy went into determining that the kind of people that do this are narcissistic. There are many factors contributing to any cases where people go on a murderous rampage or become serial killers, trying to pin-point one thing as the cause seems foolish to me. The guy lists three cases of mass murder, and shows one way in which they were similar, then tries to peg that as why they went bad. That's like saying "Albert Pujols is a great baseball player, Alfonso Soriano is a great baseball player, and Alex Rodriguez is a great baseball player. Clearly having a first name that starts with the letter 'A' is a defining indicator of who will be a great baseball player."


Yea except its the FBI's job to determine the traits that go into this, so one would say its not foolish, considering their research and case records show that the majority of people who do this have this singular quality, which he pointed out.

I mean people can back and forth on it, but I don't think its foolish to remind people that this quality has a lot that goes into it, and maybe they will be a little more aware of their peers' behavior.
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Postby josebach » Wed May 02, 2007 10:23 pm

Madison wrote:
josebach wrote:Nice post. There are a lot of parallels between violence and morality as well, which is why I get so perturbed when I hear a certain sect discussing how immoral society is becoming. I personally don't believe people are any less moral now than they were 20, 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. Morality is a VERY relative thing. Of course there are a couple people here who ADAMANTLY disagree with me on this. ;-)


I'd be one of them and all you've got to do to see the proof is check out the generation of kids out there. Obviously it's not every single kid, but the majority have zero morals and/or ethics whatsoever. Kids in the old days respected anyone older than them, now they respect no one (just as one of many examples).


There were bad kids 50 years ago just like there are bad kids today. You tell me kids in the 50s, 60s and 70s thought less about sex than they do now? Or were better people? Don't kid yourself. If it was more socially acceptable in the 60s and 70s for kids to act out and be themselves and have sex, they would have done it. Times have changed, kids haven't. I assume you think the 50's were the golden days or morality, huh? Ask blacks and women how moral THEY thought the 50s were. Making blanket statements condemning today's youth is incredibly shortsighted. As a society we're actually evolving, and the ostentatious nature of today's youth is just a side effect.
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Postby great gretzky » Wed May 02, 2007 10:36 pm

josebach wrote:
Madison wrote:
josebach wrote:Nice post. There are a lot of parallels between violence and morality as well, which is why I get so perturbed when I hear a certain sect discussing how immoral society is becoming. I personally don't believe people are any less moral now than they were 20, 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. Morality is a VERY relative thing. Of course there are a couple people here who ADAMANTLY disagree with me on this. ;-)


I'd be one of them and all you've got to do to see the proof is check out the generation of kids out there. Obviously it's not every single kid, but the majority have zero morals and/or ethics whatsoever. Kids in the old days respected anyone older than them, now they respect no one (just as one of many examples).


There were bad kids 50 years ago just like there are bad kids today. You tell me kids in the 50s, 60s and 70s thought less about sex than they do now? Or were better people? Don't kid yourself. If it was more socially acceptable in the 60s and 70s for kids to act out and be themselves and have sex, they would have done it. Times have changed, kids haven't. I assume you think the 50's were the golden days or morality, huh? Ask blacks and women how moral THEY thought the 50s were. Making blanket statements condemning today's youth is incredibly shortsighted. As a society we're actually evolving, and the ostentatious nature of today's youth is just a side effect.


Agreed. I get more than annoyed when people acted like teens didn't have sex, they did. People just didn't advertise it.

Besides, one thing that people really forget in the morality debate of yesteryear as compared to today:

The whole family structure was different. Preaching abstinence until marriage wasn't nearly as hard as it is today. First of all, you could realistically get married at 18, today that's VERY young. Second of all, kids hit puberty a couple of years later than a lot of kids do know. If i'm not mistaken, the average age of getting married now is something like 25 or later. So what you are asking overall is a lot more difficult--especially when viewed through the prism of families. Historically, the extended family made their home and finances available to young couples. Now, not so much. It's a lot easier to be on a high horse when things are a little easier. To me its akin to the ugly, boorish guy bragging that he never cheated on his wife--as if women are clamoring for him or what have you.

And this "Greatest Generation" stuff gets more than a little old when African Americans couldn't drink from the same water fountains as whites or even get served in restaurants. And don't gimmie "product of the times" nonsense, because there were abolitionists predating this from a 100 years before arguing for equality.

I think the thing is, kids today aren't necessarily immoral as a group, studies have consistently shown the younger generations are much more tolerant of racial, sexual, and religious differences. I also think however that there may be more instances of amorality.

But I don't think the greatest generation or the boomers are some paragons of morality (especially the boomers). The WWII generation did some good things, but when institutionalized racism is the norm, its kind of hard to go crazy.

And by the way, there were always sociopaths, only difference is, there were a lot more avenues for people like that to explore; instead of shooting up a school, they took up piracy or regiments in the army etc. There are much fewer wars to fight, and less avenues to express that. Ever read some of the things pirates actually did to each other? No doubt some of them would have been the school shooters of today.
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