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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:25 pm
by Lofunzo
The Miner Part 2 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
Yoda wrote:Do we really need Olney to tell us that Torre's job is on the line? Isn't it pretty obvious given George's impatience?


Years ago, I would have agreed. Steinbrenner is much more patient now and defers to his baseball people. Working against Torre is the fact that Swindall is now out of the picture. Torre isn't going anywhere.

I don't like the panic moves that Torre has made so far.


Patient or completely senile?


Patient. He is much calmer now.

jbauer2485 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
I don't like the panic moves that Torre has made so far.


What panic moves has Torre made so far?

He's made some pretty dumb in-game managing the last few years, but if anything, he's way too calm at this point to suggest there have been panic moves.


The season is still a baby and I have seen a few. Going on the air to reiterate that Rivera will only be a 9th inning pitcher this season and then brining him into the 8th inning 1 day later. Taking Pettitte out of a game after 100 pitches and then bringing him in as a RP 2 days later. That's just 2.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:27 pm
by Lofunzo
thedude wrote:Torre is aweful at managing the bullpen. He basically destroys arms. Look at tom gordon, he appeared in 159 games over two season in his mid thirties.


He could certainly handle it better but what choice does he have when his starters can't go 5 innings?? He has tried to save them and spread the innings around but hasn't had another option.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:31 pm
by jbauer2485
Lofunzo wrote:The season is still a baby and I have seen a few. Going on the air to reiterate that Rivera will only be a 9th inning pitcher this season and then brining him into the 8th inning 1 day later. Taking Pettitte out of a game after 100 pitches and then bringing him in as a RP 2 days later. That's just 2.


Rivera is the only panic move I suppose, but I didn't take that "only 9th inning" stuff seriously. Every closer has to come in to work the 8th at least a few times during the season.

As for Pettitte, taking him out after 100 pitchers is just what Joe does with his starting pitchers to keep them fresh later on in the year(which is one of the reasons he should be fired), it isn't a panic move. Also, bringing him in for relief was fine because it was his throwing day.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:34 pm
by thedude
Lofunzo wrote:
thedude wrote:Torre is aweful at managing the bullpen. He basically destroys arms. Look at tom gordon, he appeared in 159 games over two season in his mid thirties.


He could certainly handle it better but what choice does he have when his starters can't go 5 innings?? He has tried to save them and spread the innings around but hasn't had another option.


He doesn't have to pull the starters when he is. Sometimes you have to let guys pitch through jams. That or carry 14 pitchers. I would rather let starters pitch through jams. to quote Olney, "Torre is managing every game, it seems, as if it's October and it's must-win. While the competitiveness is admirable, in practice this is doing serious early damage to that part of the pitching staff -- the bullpen -- which really must be the backbone of the Yankees' fight to contend this year."

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:35 pm
by Yoda
Lofunzo wrote:
Yoda wrote:Do we really need Olney to tell us that Torre's job is on the line? Isn't it pretty obvious given George's impatience?


Years ago, I would have agreed. Steinbrenner is much more patient now and defers to his baseball people. Working against Torre is the fact that Swindall is now out of the picture. Torre isn't going anywhere.

I don't like the panic moves that Torre has made so far.


Yeah he is so patient that he brought up a 20 yo kid who is not ready.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:37 pm
by jbauer2485
thedude wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
thedude wrote:Torre is aweful at managing the bullpen. He basically destroys arms. Look at tom gordon, he appeared in 159 games over two season in his mid thirties.


He could certainly handle it better but what choice does he have when his starters can't go 5 innings?? He has tried to save them and spread the innings around but hasn't had another option.


He doesn't have to pull the starters when he is. Sometimes you have to let guys pitch through jams. That or carry 14 pitchers. I would rather let starters pitch through jams. to quote Olney, "Torre is managing every game, it seems, as if it's October and it's must-win. While the competitiveness is admirable, in practice this is doing serious early damage to that part of the pitching staff -- the bullpen -- which really must be the backbone of the Yankees' fight to contend this year."


Yes, this is the point that a lot of people fail to understand. Joe Torre can't be blamed for 75% of the starters burning 100 pitches through 3-4 innings and giving up a ton of runs. However, he can be blamed for the other 25% when he took the starters out at the first sign of trouble and proceeded to use his entire bull pen from the 5th inning on.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:46 pm
by StarsNPinstripes
thedude wrote:Torre is aweful at managing the bullpen. He basically destroys arms. Look at tom gordon, he appeared in 159 games over two season in his mid thirties.


In past seasons, I definitely agree with this statement but this season what choice does he have? When your SPs can't get out of the 5th inning on a daily basis the bullpen is eventually going to get taxed and eventually exposed.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:54 pm
by StarsNPinstripes
jbauer2485 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:The season is still a baby and I have seen a few. Going on the air to reiterate that Rivera will only be a 9th inning pitcher this season and then brining him into the 8th inning 1 day later. Taking Pettitte out of a game after 100 pitches and then bringing him in as a RP 2 days later. That's just 2.


Rivera is the only panic move I suppose, but I didn't take that "only 9th inning" stuff seriously. Every closer has to come in to work the 8th at least a few times during the season.

As for Pettitte, taking him out after 100 pitchers is just what Joe does with his starting pitchers to keep them fresh later on in the year(which is one of the reasons he should be fired), it isn't a panic move. Also, bringing him in for relief was fine because it was his throwing day.


I agree with Lofunzo on the Rivera move.In itself, I see no problem with bringing Mo to pitch the 8th and IMO no one should have believed Torre when he said Mo won't pitch the 8th(I didn't) but I'm of the opinion that if this was any other team except the Sox, Mo wouldn't have been in that game.The Pettitte thing I don't have a problem with since it was his throw day and Pettitte volunteered to pitch an inning.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:11 pm
by blankman
StarsNPinstripes wrote:
jbauer2485 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:The season is still a baby and I have seen a few. Going on the air to reiterate that Rivera will only be a 9th inning pitcher this season and then brining him into the 8th inning 1 day later. Taking Pettitte out of a game after 100 pitches and then bringing him in as a RP 2 days later. That's just 2.


Rivera is the only panic move I suppose, but I didn't take that "only 9th inning" stuff seriously. Every closer has to come in to work the 8th at least a few times during the season.

As for Pettitte, taking him out after 100 pitchers is just what Joe does with his starting pitchers to keep them fresh later on in the year(which is one of the reasons he should be fired), it isn't a panic move. Also, bringing him in for relief was fine because it was his throwing day.


I agree with Lofunzo on the Rivera move.In itself, I see no problem with bringing Mo to pitch the 8th and IMO no one should have believed Torre when he said Mo won't pitch the 8th(I didn't) but I'm of the opinion that if this was any other team except the Sox, Mo wouldn't have been in that game.The Pettitte thing I don't have a problem with since it was his throw day and Pettitte volunteered to pitch an inning.


Agreed.

I have no problem with bringing in Mo there. He hasn't pitched much anyway.

Pettitte, I also don't have a problem with.


But he really does need to be fired from managing the bullpen. I've watched him destroy the pen for too many years now and its just got to stop.


The starters are obviously the main problem, but sometimes, you've got to tell them to gut out another inning. Especially when you've got a situation where their pitch count still isn't high and your bullpen has pitched 5 innings in each of the past 3 games.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:17 pm
by The Miner Part 2
blankman wrote:
StarsNPinstripes wrote:
jbauer2485 wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:The season is still a baby and I have seen a few. Going on the air to reiterate that Rivera will only be a 9th inning pitcher this season and then brining him into the 8th inning 1 day later. Taking Pettitte out of a game after 100 pitches and then bringing him in as a RP 2 days later. That's just 2.


Rivera is the only panic move I suppose, but I didn't take that "only 9th inning" stuff seriously. Every closer has to come in to work the 8th at least a few times during the season.

As for Pettitte, taking him out after 100 pitchers is just what Joe does with his starting pitchers to keep them fresh later on in the year(which is one of the reasons he should be fired), it isn't a panic move. Also, bringing him in for relief was fine because it was his throwing day.


I agree with Lofunzo on the Rivera move.In itself, I see no problem with bringing Mo to pitch the 8th and IMO no one should have believed Torre when he said Mo won't pitch the 8th(I didn't) but I'm of the opinion that if this was any other team except the Sox, Mo wouldn't have been in that game.The Pettitte thing I don't have a problem with since it was his throw day and Pettitte volunteered to pitch an inning.


Agreed.

I have no problem with bringing in Mo there. He hasn't pitched much anyway.

Pettitte, I also don't have a problem with.


But he really does need to be fired from managing the bullpen. I've watched him destroy the pen for too many years now and its just got to stop.


The starters are obviously the main problem, but sometimes, you've got to tell them to gut out another inning. Especially when you've got a situation where their pitch count still isn't high and your bullpen has pitched 5 innings in each of the past 3 games.


How should Torre save your pen when your staff is bringing nothing to the table?