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Closers Value in Fantasy?

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Closers Value in Fantasy?

Postby Philliebuster » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:44 pm

OK, so I proposed in my main money league to increase the value of a save from 4 to 5 points because I thought the closer was undervalued in our league.

The current pitcher scoring is as follows:

Scoring for Pitching Categories
BBI - Walks Issued (Pitchers) -.5 points
BS - Blown Saves -2 points
ER - Earned Runs -1 point
HB - Hit Batsmen -.5 points
INN - Innings 0.5 points
K - Strikeouts (Pitcher) 1 point
L - Losses -3 points
NH - No-Hitters 10 points
S - Saves 4 points
SO - Shutouts 10 points
W - Wins 10 points

The commish is not liking the idea of giving closers any more value, in which this was his response:

OK, some owners have made positive replies regarding the increased value for a closer. It seems the time has come for me to speak about the opposite.

In no way should a save in our league be equal to a win. That's preposterous!!!

Here's a little something you should be aware of:

There are 30 teams in the MLB. Let's assume they all use 5 starters and 1 closer per team. That's 150 starters and 30 closers. A ratio of 5:1 starter to closer.

In our league, 4 closers finished in the top 20 pitchers point-wise in 2006. That's 16 starters and 4 closers. A ratio of 4:1.

In essence I feel that our closers are a bit OVER-valued. This is proven above. Basically 30 starting pitchers in the league are useless, because even the worst closer would be better than the bottom 30 starters. That's 1/5th, or 20% of starting pitchers.

Here's an example: Let's say that we give closers 1 more point for a save, just one, a total of 5 pts per save. That would give Joe Nathan 36 additional points, making him the 3rd most valuable pitcher in the league for 2006. That's not right in my book. Not by a long shot. He would never be drafted that early in any league.

Seems like he makes some good points, is this refutable, or do you still see an argument to increase the value by 1 point?
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Postby Philliebuster » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:49 pm

Another note about this league, is that we are not required to start any closers as one of our 5 pitchers started on a weekly basis. Also, here was our 2006 P rankings, with points scored.

Santana, Johan SP MIN 436.3
Webb, Brandon SP ARI 352.5
Harang, Aaron SP CIN 350.2
Carpenter, Chris SP STL 348.3
Smoltz, John SP ATL 348
Nathan, Joe RP MIN 318.7
Zambrano, Carlos SP CHC 313
Schilling, Curt SP BOS 308.5
Oswalt, Roy SP HOU 307.3
Mussina, Mike SP NYY 302.7
Arroyo, Bronson SP CIN 298.8
Rodriguez, Francisco RP ANA 297
Bonderman, Jeremy SP DET 294.5
Halladay, Roy SP TOR 289.5
Lackey, John SP ANA 289.3
Putz, J.J. RP SEA 282.7
Sabathia, C.C. SP CLE 280.8
Liriano, Francisco SP MIN 274
Wagner, Billy RP NYM 273.7
Myers, Brett SP PHI 268
Bedard, Erik SP BAL 267.2
Johnson, Randy SP NYY 262.5
Verlander, Justin SP DET 262
Saito, Takashi SP LA 261.7
Pettitte, Andy SP NYY 260.2
Ryan, B.J. RP TOR 259.2
Haren, Dan SP OAK 259
Peavy, Jake SP SD 258.2
Garland, Jon SP CHW 257.2
Papelbon, Jonathan SP BOS 257.2
Wang, Chien-Ming SP NYY 256
Penny, Brad SP LA 253
Millwood, Kevin SP TEX 252
Schmidt, Jason SP LA 251.7
Capuano, Chris SP MIL 251.7
Lowe, Derek SP LA 250
Garcia, Freddy An. SP PHI 249.7
Bush, Dave SP MIL 247
Cain, Matt SP SF 243.8
Kazmir, Scott SP TB 242.3
Young, Chris R. SP SD 242.2
Zito, Barry SP SF 241.5
Santana, Ervin SP ANA 241.5
Jenks, Bobby RP CHW 241.3
Glavine, Tom SP NYM 241
Rivera, Mariano RP NYY 234.5
Cordero, Chad RP WAS 233.2
Snell, Ian RP PIT 233
Padilla, Vicente SP TEX 232.5
Lilly, Ted SP CHC 232.3
Beckett, Josh SP BOS 231.3
Hernandez, Felix SP SEA 230.5
Hoffman, Trevor RP SD 227.5
Westbrook, Jake SP CLE 227.2
Rogers, Kenny SP DET 224.5
Olsen, Scott SP FLA 224.3
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Postby Amazinz » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:12 pm

I don't think there's a right answer. It depends on what your goal is for the league scoring. If you are trying to balance the categories than Saves are undervalued. If you are trying to balance the value of positions than it depends on what measurement you are using. If you are trying to roughly mirror the value in Roto than I think you're current setup looks fairly accurate.
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Postby bigwords » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:16 pm

I suspect this is the wrong forum for this question.

But, I think the problem is not that you're undervaluing saves, but you're overvaluing wins. 10 points for a win?!
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Postby ukrneal » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:19 pm

You will find that a lot of people believe that top closers should NEVER be worth close to the top starters. What you have now doesn't seem too bad either.

In most drafts, I find that the top RP are often among the top 5. In the Sporting News mock draft, the #2 pitcher (taken in round 2) was Frod. You can agree or disagree with this value, but it provides an example where others clearly disagree with your commish. It then followed Nathan, Rivera, Carpenter. Or on ESPN last year, first R was taken at #6 (although in earlier years Rivera and Gagne went in rounds 2-3). Staying with ESPN, RP were taken as 8 of the first 20 pitchers, also refuting his logic.

He hasn't really proven anything. I would also tend to add a point for saves, although it is always a bit tricky making changes in keepers if someone had a strategy of sticking with starters. Clearly, it would not be in such a person's interest to change. Does the commish fit this?

He's also exaggerating. A win is worth 10 points. A save would still only be half of that. And what the 150 +30 things proves escapes me. SO what. There are only 30 SS in the league (using his logic), should there only be a certain number in the top 20? Of course not.

So we come back to what appears to be the core of his reasoning - that RP just shouldn't be worth as much as SP. This is where the discussion will probably need to go if you want to convince him, although he sounds pretty firm. Ultimately, the points system will reflect your collective beliefs on player value.
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Postby bigwords » Thu Jan 11, 2007 4:28 pm

The value of relief pitching seems to be a popular topic here these days.
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