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Postby toledomudhens » Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:20 am

i find you comment to be a little false on the twinns part. I go there once a year to see my yankees play. and you know what they have a great fan base, i mean they are almsost sold out and the streets are going nuts afterwards, minnesota is exited about baseball. now if there owner would step up to the plate and spend some friggin money (ieZITO to go along with SANTANA) i know that city would go even more bezzurk. i mean come on there friggin DH is rondell friggin white. spend some money cause the people are there. SPEND THE MONEY AND THEY WILL COME!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Matthias » Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:26 am

BritSox wrote:
acsguitar wrote:Good for the Sox they finally understand that its not cheating to buy players in MLB

Shame on teams like the Twins who have 50000000 billion dollars they chose not to spend on free agents instead letting their team fall a few games short of a world series every single year so their greedy owner can roll around in his money like a pig in ....


OK, I've taken as much of this as I can.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, THE PERSONAL WEALTH OF POHLAD OR GLASS OR STEINBRENNER OR WHOEVER DOES NOT MAKE A DAMN DIFFERENCE! IT'S THE AMOUNT OF REVENUE THE TEAM ITSELF BRINGS IN THAT MATTERS!

Agreed. As I said in a similar thread about six months ago, just because Pohlad's granddaughter opens up a lemonade stand, selling glasses for $0.50, doesn't mean that it makes sense for him, or that he should, spend $100,000 on advertising for her. If you have the resources, you have the ability to bleed money. But that doesn't mean that you're obligated to. Every business, be it his bank (which maybe I think he sold), his ballclub, or his granddaughter's lemonade stand, has to stand on its own revenuewise.

toledomudhens wrote:i find you comment to be a little false on the twinns part. I go there once a year to see my yankees play. and you know what they have a great fan base, i mean they are almsost sold out and the streets are going nuts afterwards, minnesota is exited about baseball. now if there owner would step up to the plate and spend some friggin money (ieZITO to go along with SANTANA) i know that city would go even more bezzurk. i mean come on there friggin DH is rondell friggin white. spend some money cause the people are there. SPEND THE MONEY AND THEY WILL COME!!!!!!!!!

I'm actually from Minnesota. Born and raised. Graduated high school from there. Went back for law school. My family still lives there. So I go back a couple of times a year.

And no: the Twins are not ever close to being sold out. Maybe for the Yankees games. But even then, they have a huge tarp they drape over center field which covers seats to make it seem as if the place isn't nearly as empty as it really is.

Also, Minnesota is not really a baseball state. Some cities are. Boston definitely is. New York definitely is. But Minnesota likes the Twins in a more casual way. Very much into it when they're winning. But kind of fair weather fans. (I remember after they won the World Series in 1987, Tom Kelly came out to our town for a little Twins rally and hectored the crowd on not being there to support them in the years before).

And the Twins can't charge nearly as much for tickets as other franchises. Partially because they have tons of seats. Partially because it's not a baseball town. Partially because it's an indoor stadium. Partially because they get really hosed on the Metrodome deal (basically, there's guaranteed revenues that go to the Metrodome commission and then guaranteed revenues that go to the Vikings and then the Twins start collecting after those get paid off). Partially because the cost of living of everything is lower in Minnesota than it is in the major metros elsewhere in the country.

One thing that I think that gets really lost in all these talks is that when salaries were lower, Minnesota was spending the money. If I remember correctly, Kirby Puckett was the first baseball player to make three million dollars a year. So it's not that the franchise is against spending money. They just can't spend the same kind of money that is being kicked around nowadays.

Ok. Done with the rant.
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Postby noseeum » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:34 pm

Matthias wrote:
BritSox wrote:
acsguitar wrote:Good for the Sox they finally understand that its not cheating to buy players in MLB

Shame on teams like the Twins who have 50000000 billion dollars they chose not to spend on free agents instead letting their team fall a few games short of a world series every single year so their greedy owner can roll around in his money like a pig in ....


OK, I've taken as much of this as I can.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, THE PERSONAL WEALTH OF POHLAD OR GLASS OR STEINBRENNER OR WHOEVER DOES NOT MAKE A DAMN DIFFERENCE! IT'S THE AMOUNT OF REVENUE THE TEAM ITSELF BRINGS IN THAT MATTERS!

Agreed. As I said in a similar thread about six months ago, just because Pohlad's granddaughter opens up a lemonade stand, selling glasses for $0.50, doesn't mean that it makes sense for him, or that he should, spend $100,000 on advertising for her. If you have the resources, you have the ability to bleed money. But that doesn't mean that you're obligated to. Every business, be it his bank (which maybe I think he sold), his ballclub, or his granddaughter's lemonade stand, has to stand on its own revenue wise.


This is just not true. "Minnesota is not a baseball town" is an excuse. There's no other competition near Minneapolis for baseball fans.

"Every business, be it his bank (which maybe I think he sold), his ballclub, or his granddaughter's lemonade stand, has to stand on its own revenue wise."

This is certainly not true. Look at all the US car companies right now. They're bleeding money. They could stop making cars that aren't selling at the price they want and make a profit, but they know it makes more sense to have a product out there in the conversation. They're willing to lose billions of dollars a year in order to stay in the game.

There are plenty of times where it makes sense to lose money. The Twins have zero competition nearby and there's no such thing as "not a baseball town". If you have a good product, and you market your product well, people will come. If the stadium stinks, then quit complaining about it and build a new one. If you want taxpayer dollars to build it, then pay for expensive free agents to build an attractive team, lose a couple of million dollars a year while the fan base is getting excited, and then at their peak get a vote on the ballot. That's what San Diego did.

To just say "they can only spend how much revenue they make" is extremely simplistic. There are plenty of valid business reasons for Pohlad to invest more money and even lose a little money for 10 years straight, given the size of the monopoly market he has. He's come nowhere near maximizing it and any businessman would tell him that.

The only thing you can't do when you have an extremely valuable monopoly company like a baseball team is sit there, do nothing and complain about it.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:51 pm

noseeum wrote:This is just not true. "Minnesota is not a baseball town" is an excuse. There's no other competition near Minneapolis for baseball fans.

Minnesota is a football state. It cares about the Vikings. And, to a lesser extent, it is also big into hockey. People are much more bitter about Norm Green who moved the North Stars to Dallas than they would have been if the Twins had been contracted.

So the Twins face the competition of: the Vikings, the T-Wolves, the Wild, the University of Minnesota sports, and lots of theater (Minneapolis has the most theaters per capita of any city in the US other than NYC). Also, in the summer months when baseball is largely played, the Twins have to compete against a slew of outdoor festivals as Minnesotans take their brief chance to be outdoors and not be bundled up. There's much more to competition than simply whether or not there is another MLB baseball team.

noseeum wrote:"Every business, be it his bank (which maybe I think he sold), his ballclub, or his granddaughter's lemonade stand, has to stand on its own revenue wise."

This is certainly not true. Look at all the US car companies right now. They're bleeding money. They could stop making cars that aren't selling at the price they want and make a profit, but they know it makes more sense to have a product out there in the conversation. They're willing to lose billions of dollars a year in order to stay in the game.

It absolutely is true. It may make sense to lose money in a business while you are investing in it in order to earn a greater return in the future as in something like the drug companies and their R&D on new drugs. But if a business unit is losing money, and is going to keep losing money, and is not going to make the money you put into it, you cut it off. Or you lower expenses to the point that it becomes profitable. No matter how much money you have at your disposal.

You may believe that Pohlad is not maximizing revenue. But he's been trying to sell the Twins for over a decade. And I think has been asking about $150MM or so (I think for contracting it he would have received about $130MM). But noone has stepped up to the plate to buy it. So are you still so sure that he's just not doing well with his business? Or is it possible that other businessmen took a look at the franchise, considered what they could get out of it, and decided it wasn't much?

P.S. I wouldn't ever use the American car companies as a positive example for a company to follow. They went from dominant to waiting to be bought out in the space of thirty years.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:02 pm

Actually, if you want to see a monopoly, travel to Lincoln, Nebraska. Cornhusker football: now THAT is a monopoly.
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Postby Mercer Boy » Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:22 am

RocketsDWM wrote:Other owners in the league should do the same - spend some money instead of pocketing it (especially the Twins owner). These owners have the money to spend and its time for them to invest in their team.


And the Pirates owners... :-[
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Postby thedude » Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:44 am

noseeum wrote:This is certainly not true. Look at all the US car companies right now. They're bleeding money. They could stop making cars that aren't selling at the price they want and make a profit, but they know it makes more sense to have a product out there in the conversation. They're willing to lose billions of dollars a year in order to stay in the game.




The US car companies are a competely different situation. They are maximizing profits. The reason they are losing money is becuase of huge fixed costs. If they raise the price of cars no one would buy them and they would lose more money. And their fixed costs are so high, that they would actually lose more money if they didn't prosuce any cars.

There are plenty of times where it makes sense to lose money. The Twins have zero competition nearby and there's no such thing as "not a baseball town". If you have a good product, and you market your product well, people will come. If the stadium stinks, then quit complaining about it and build a new one. If you want taxpayer dollars to build it, then pay for expensive free agents to build an attractive team, lose a couple of million dollars a year while the fan base is getting excited, and then at their peak get a vote on the ballot. That's what San Diego did.

To just say "they can only spend how much revenue they make" is extremely simplistic. There are plenty of valid business reasons for Pohlad to invest more money and even lose a little money for 10 years straight, given the size of the monopoly market he has. He's come nowhere near maximizing it and any businessman would tell him that.

The only thing you can't do when you have an extremely valuable monopoly company like a baseball team is sit there, do nothing and complain about it.


So you are saying that all of the franchises that don't spend money are not maximizing profits? That cannot be true. If they were not maximizing profits in the long-run people would see that and the teams would be bought by people who would maximize profits.
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