Return to Baseball Leftovers

NL Cy Young

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby BritSox » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:19 am

You can't use both the 'lots of tough losses' and the 'few really bad starts' arguments. His ERA was what it was. Was he consistently good but not great, or did he have a few blowouts disguising a lot of great starts? End of the day, the number of runs he allowed was what it was. I'm sure you could make the 'got let down by run support' argument for any of the pitchers in the race.
BritSox
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicMock(ing) DrafterLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5180
(Past Year: -43)
Joined: 5 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: You don't care, do you? No... because you're unconscious.

Postby FalcoAtL » Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:36 am

Okay, but his ERA would have been solidly under 3 had it not been for that last start. I'm not saying it makes his numbers look better if you look at it that way. I'm saying that this is the type of stuff voters take into consideration. Webb was dominant the entire season, no doubt. Not a single other pitcher completely baffled the entire league in the way that Webb was able to. And I think the voters recognized that.
FalcoAtL
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar
Pick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 1890
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 1 Oct 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Postby AdvRider » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:17 pm

If you think you can flatly compare a reliever's ERA, WHIP, K/9 etc to a starter's, you've got some big issues understanding this game.


Well, I’ll guess we’ll have to agree to disagree … obviously ERA, WHIP, K/9 & etc. for relievers (not named Derrick Turnbow) will be generally lower than those of starters. And though I generally prefer starters over relievers for Cy Young, I also think closers deserve a bit more Cy Young consideration than they get.

Webb had a damn good season, don’t get me wrong. But in the absence of compelling Cy Young-caliber numbers, Hoffman gets my vote. And the seasonal vs. career achievement debate is lot like the debate over what the Most Valuable Player award means, and the semi-vague word “valuable.” Career achievement rarely factors into Cy Young or other post-season consideration, but once in a while, like 2006, it’s implicitly on the table for the writer-voters to ponder.

Saito did have better numbers, except for his low 24 SVs… that rules him out IMHO.

Least there won’t be any debate over Santana … :-b
AdvRider
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 650
(Past Year: 2)
Joined: 10 Apr 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 49 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality

Postby thedude » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:12 pm

AdvRider wrote:Saito did have better numbers, except for his low 24 SVs… that rules him out IMHO.


Except that saves are one of the pointless stats in baseball.
"I do not think baseball of today is any better than it was 30 years ago... I still think Radbourne is the greatest of the pitchers." John Sullivan 1914-Old athletes never change.
thedude
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 8014
(Past Year: -397)
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: The Good Life

Postby Pogotheostrich » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:20 pm

AdvRider wrote:Saito did have better numbers, except for his low 24 SVs… that rules him out IMHO.

So closers should get more consideration for the Cy Young but middle relievers shouldn't? :-t
Image
Pogotheostrich
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 20471
(Past Year: -946)
Joined: 9 Dec 2002
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: St. Louis

Postby davidmarver » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:46 pm

blankman wrote:You need look no further than last year to find a more outstanding season by a reliever.

You're contradicting yourself again. You pointed at Webb's high ERA -- in comparison to past Cy winners -- being a result of the league as a whole scoring more runs, but then you go compare Hoffman's '06 to other seasons.

In no way am I saying Hoffman deserved the Cy Young -- he wasn't even the best reliever on his own team -- I'm just pointing out the holes in your argument.

And Falco, you can't just throw out starts; they still existed and they're as relevent to Webb's 2006 as any of his better performances. Instead you should be focusing on the fact that, despite his last few starts, he still led the league in ERA+ (a ballpark adjusted ERA figure), finished second in WHIP, finished third in NL pitching runs created, finished third in opponents slugging, while throwing 235 innings, second in the NL.
davidmarver
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 ChampionLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 5826
(Past Year: -328)
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 5.5 Hole

Previous

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests