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NL Cy Young

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Postby Yoda » Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:03 pm

thedude wrote:Any find it interesting that a guy pitches 63 innings with a 197 ERA+ (using this stat to normalize league and park differences) get 12 first place votes for CY Young, while a guy who pitches 68.3 innings with a 500 ERA+ gets zero first place votes for Rookie of the Year?

This is why sports writers stink.


I should add that i have some freinds who work in the bussiness, they shall be getting crap from me for this one.


Interesting observation... All these awards are based on merit and popularity. Very subjective.
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Postby sportsaddict » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:40 pm

Yoda wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote:
AdvRider wrote:
Does Hoffman have a testy relationship with the media? That might explain it....


i think it has more to do with being a reliever. he had a good year but not unprecedented for relievers by any means. not even close to gagne's 2003. you even have some people saying cla(y) meredith had a better year than hoffman


Yeah I don't believe in relievers getting the Cy. Remember how bad Gagne was as a starting pitcher? Not saying Hoffy's a bad pitcher but relievers in general end up in the pen because they are not good at starting.


I think you are right that relievers don't have what it takes to be starters, but you have to keep in mind that if you threw Chris Carpenter or Roy Oswalt into Eric Gagne's closing role, they wouldn't even be close to him. So obviously it takes more to be a starter but don't forget that being a closer/reliever isn't exactly easy. There's a lot more to deal with mentally- take a look at Todd Jones. He isn't very talented but he is fearless on the mound. Guys like that succeed as closers becasue they are mentally tough.
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Postby Half Massed » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:46 pm

Reasonable pick. Could have gone either way in my opinion.
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Postby Yoda » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:48 pm

sportsaddict wrote:
Yoda wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote:
AdvRider wrote:
Does Hoffman have a testy relationship with the media? That might explain it....


i think it has more to do with being a reliever. he had a good year but not unprecedented for relievers by any means. not even close to gagne's 2003. you even have some people saying cla(y) meredith had a better year than hoffman


Yeah I don't believe in relievers getting the Cy. Remember how bad Gagne was as a starting pitcher? Not saying Hoffy's a bad pitcher but relievers in general end up in the pen because they are not good at starting.


I think you are right that relievers don't have what it takes to be starters, but you have to keep in mind that if you threw Chris Carpenter or Roy Oswalt into Eric Gagne's closing role, they wouldn't even be close to him. So obviously it takes more to be a starter but don't forget that being a closer/reliever isn't exactly easy. There's a lot more to deal with mentally- take a look at Todd Jones. He isn't very talented but he is fearless on the mound. Guys like that succeed as closers becasue they are mentally tough.


Please, Carp and Oswalt would be ridiculous as closers. They can do it for 9 innings whereas Gagne at his peak could only do it for 1 or 2 at the most.
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Postby JTWood » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:51 pm

I think Carp's September swoon cost him the award.

If not him, I would have given it to Oswalt.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:57 pm

JTWood wrote:I think Carp's September swoon cost him the award.

If not him, I would have given it to Oswalt.


i think it did as well, but i also think thats a bad reason. carp still had a 3.57era, 1.15 whip for 45 innings in sept. thats not that bad. people just remember the last two starts when he gave up 6er in each. of course webb laid in egg (5.01era, 1.71whip) in august when his team needed him most but doesnt seem to lose any points for that.
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Postby blankman » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:38 pm

AdvRider wrote:That stinks. :-t Hoffman totally deserved it, not just for a stellar 2006 but as something of a lifetime achievement award. Becoming the all-time saves leader, for Pete's sake!

I could see it if Webb had a killer season, but a 3.10 ERA and 235 IP / 178 K does not deserve Cy Young recognition compared to what Hoffman has accomplished.

Does Hoffman have a testy relationship with the media? That might explain it....


Hoffman wasn't even close to Cy worthy this year. He arguably wasn't even the best closer in the NL this year and he didn't log many innings even for a closer.

I made a post awhile back giving some numbers comparisons. I'll try to dig it up.
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Postby blankman » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:47 pm

blankman wrote:If these numbers:

7-4
1.38 ERA
316 ERA+
0.868 WHIP
13 Win Shares

43/47 saves
91.4% SV%

71 games
78.1 IP
80 SO

can't win you a Cy in a year with no strong starters,

how can you expect these numbers (Hoffman's):

0-2
2.14 ERA
197 ERA+
0.97 WHIP
11 Win Shares (3rd among NL RP)

46/51
90.2% SV%

65 games
63 IP
50 SO

to warrant a Cy Young?

Those numbers aren't even close. Hoffman averages less than an inning per appearance, and only has 63 innings.

His ERA+ doesn't even begin to compare and despite the Hoffman fanboys' claims of his better SV%, its not even as good.

And for good measure, he did blow the All-Star Game for the NL when his own team made the playoffs and it could have had an effect on them.
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Postby thedude » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:50 pm

blankman wrote:
AdvRider wrote:That stinks. :-t Hoffman totally deserved it, not just for a stellar 2006 but as something of a lifetime achievement award. Becoming the all-time saves leader, for Pete's sake!

I could see it if Webb had a killer season, but a 3.10 ERA and 235 IP / 178 K does not deserve Cy Young recognition compared to what Hoffman has accomplished.

Does Hoffman have a testy relationship with the media? That might explain it....


Hoffman wasn't even close to Cy worthy this year. He arguably wasn't even the best closer in the NL this year and he didn't log many innings even for a closer.

I made a post awhile back giving some numbers comparisons. I'll try to dig it up.


The Cy Young isn't a "lifetime achievement award." It is a award that goes to the best pitcher that had the best season.

Of course i could see the BWAA doing something stupid like that; the writers can be very ignorant at times.
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