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'The Punch'

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Postby Coppermine » Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:02 am

Madison wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
Laean wrote:i'm not saying that the player was right to punch the ref, but i do think it should be noted that he most likely did not know that his punch would result in a broken jaw and a 3 hour emergency surgery for the ref. he at most probably thought it'd knock the ref out, if he thought at all while in the heat of the moment.

with that said, he deserves to be suspended and sued. banned? maybe. imprisoned? probably not.


That doesn't matter; what, he watched too many movies? He didn't learn, like everyone else did at age 8 not to hit people? Seriously, this guy, a supposed adult, sucker punched a defenseless (and considerably smaller) guy for making a bad call.

Throw him in jail; that's assault at best, attempted murder at worst. What if this guy did die?


Sorry Laean, but I agree with Coppermine. The player had zero grounds to punch anyone. There was no reason for the player to turn physical. Also, the ref has the right to do his job without fear of being physically attacked (and possibly killed or handicapped for life) by a player who could not control his temper. The ref also has the right to not be financially hurt in any way for the player's lack of self control.

Ban him? No brainer.
Sue him? Absolutely.
Jail time? Definitely. I wouldn't say anything nuts like the rest of his life, but he definitely needs to learn that there are severe consequences for severe actions such as that one.

On a personal level, that player is nothing but a scumbag loser. :-t


Word to the Madmin! ;-D
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Postby Laean » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:04 pm

Coppermine wrote:
Laean wrote:i'm not saying that the player was right to punch the ref, but i do think it should be noted that he most likely did not know that his punch would result in a broken jaw and a 3 hour emergency surgery for the ref. he at most probably thought it'd knock the ref out, if he thought at all while in the heat of the moment.

with that said, he deserves to be suspended and sued. banned? maybe. imprisoned? probably not.


That doesn't matter; what, he watched too many movies? He didn't learn, like everyone else did at age 8 not to hit people? Seriously, this guy, a supposed adult, sucker punched a defenseless (and considerably smaller) guy for making a bad call.

Throw him in jail; that's assault at best, attempted murder at worst. What if this guy did die?


hey i'm not saying what he did was right. and legally, it does matter what his state of mind was. dependant on that, he could go to jail like you said for assault, or a simple misdemeanor battery. attempted assault is a stretch without "malice aforethought."

we still do a lot of things we learned by 8 not to do. doesn't mean it's ok. doesn't mean he should just get off the hook. but i guess i personally wouldn't throw the book at him without considering other factors. maybe this was his first offense ever in 10 years in the league, maybe the players and refs always thought he was a good guy like ben wallace or something instead of someone like artest.

anyone read The Punch by ... i forget the name. the one where kermitt washington (not sure) punched and almost killed rudy tomjanovich?

anyway, i'm not trying to defend the guy. i do think he should be punished, i just happen to believe in a lesser degree of punishment than most others here, given the facts we know (which is very little.) if it came to light that this player has attacked others before, has a criminal record already, already had beef with this particular ref before the game, etc, then i would probably agree with everyone that he should be banned and jailed 100%. as it is, i'm not even ruling out banning and jailing. just saying maybe banning, unlikely jailing.
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Postby Laean » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:10 pm

Madison wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
Laean wrote:i'm not saying that the player was right to punch the ref, but i do think it should be noted that he most likely did not know that his punch would result in a broken jaw and a 3 hour emergency surgery for the ref. he at most probably thought it'd knock the ref out, if he thought at all while in the heat of the moment.

with that said, he deserves to be suspended and sued. banned? maybe. imprisoned? probably not.


That doesn't matter; what, he watched too many movies? He didn't learn, like everyone else did at age 8 not to hit people? Seriously, this guy, a supposed adult, sucker punched a defenseless (and considerably smaller) guy for making a bad call.

Throw him in jail; that's assault at best, attempted murder at worst. What if this guy did die?


Sorry Laean, but I agree with Coppermine. The player had zero grounds to punch anyone. There was no reason for the player to turn physical. Also, the ref has the right to do his job without fear of being physically attacked (and possibly killed or handicapped for life) by a player who could not control his temper. The ref also has the right to not be financially hurt in any way for the player's lack of self control.

Ban him? No brainer.
Sue him? Absolutely.
Jail time? Definitely. I wouldn't say anything nuts like the rest of his life, but he definitely needs to learn that there are severe consequences for severe actions such as that one.

On a personal level, that player is nothing but a scumbag loser. :-t


hey i agree to like 90% of the things you're saying. he had no right to punch the ref. there was no excuse to get physical. ref has a right to do his job without fear of being attacked. red does have right to not be financially hurt.

ban him? maybe. if he has lets say a record and reputation (until now) like ben wallace, i would be inclined to say no. suspension, definitely of course, but not ban. if he has a record/rep like artest/fortson/etc yes ban him.

sue him? of course, if the ref wants. that's the ref's right.

jail time? unlikely. i think this is a misdemeanor battery/assault. that's what he intended (he was angry, he didn't plan it, he didn't continue the attack). sure the result was huge, but that's why he'll have to pay couple of hundreds of thousands at least.

as for the scumbag loser, i personally thought he was more of a dumbass bully, but that works too.
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Postby Coppermine » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:31 pm

Isn't it all fun and games until somebody gets hurt? Well, someone got hurt here... seriously.

They throw people in jail for drinking and driving, and that's just because of the potential for hurting people. Even so, people who drink and drive don't do it so that they can get into an accident and hurt someone else.

You throw a punch, you're responsible for it. CEO's go to jail for stealing money, teens go to jail for carrying drugs.... but you don't think this <non-racial expletive> doesn't deserve jail time?

He wasn't even provoked. It's a game.
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Postby Laean » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:31 pm

Coppermine wrote:Isn't it all fun and games until somebody gets hurt? Well, someone got hurt here... seriously.


right, so now he'll have to suffer the consequences.

They throw people in jail for drinking and driving, and that's just because of the potential for hurting people. Even so, people who drink and drive don't do it so that they can get into an accident and hurt someone else.


that's because there's a law that says if you drink and drive, you can go to jail. there's laws for assault and battery as well. depending on jurisdiction and circumstances of the attack, it could be a misdemeanor or a felony. here, i think it's a misdemeanor assault/battery, hence imprisonment is unlikely and undeserved.

You throw a punch, you're responsible for it. CEO's go to jail for stealing money, teens go to jail for carrying drugs....


CEOs go to jail because there's laws that say if you steal millions of dollars, you go to jail. teans go to jail because there's laws that say if you carry drugs you go to jail. there's laws that say if you attack someone, you go to jail. however, there's also laws that say if you attack some and it's your first offense, if it was in the heat of the moment, if it was unpremeditated, etc, then you get misdemeanor assault/battery instead which would not necessarily include jail time. you are still punished, but not in that way.

but you don't think this <non-racial expletive> doesn't deserve jail time?


personally, i think it depends. we don't know enough. ben wallace just losing it for a moment and attacked someone? no jail time. ron artest with a history of hating this particular ref so that there's reason to believe this could have been premeditated? probably jail time. don't you remember that one time shaq threw a punch at brad miller at the back of the head? if that had hit and brad had went into a coma, would shaq deserve jail time?

He wasn't even provoked. It's a game.


we don't know that. he could have been provoked verbally earlier in the game, or the ref could have had it out for him for a while now, who knows? it definitely would not justify punching the ref or excuse anything, i'm just saying we don't know he wasn't provoked.

you know, i'm agreeing with everyone that he should be punished. i don't get why it's a problem that i don't think he should go to jail for it, unless there's something more than just a punch thrown in the heat of the moment.
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Postby Coppermine » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:09 pm

Hey, I agree with every point you made there Laean... on the flip side, I disagree with some of the laws in this country. I'm not content to just blindly agree with everything our largely boneheaded legislators come up with, particularly at the local level. That doesn't mean I don't follow laws, but I don't always have to like it.

My point is, we're too easy on violent crimes and too hard on non-violent ones.... in general anyway. That's my only point.
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Postby Laean » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:41 pm

Coppermine wrote:Hey, I agree with every point you made there Laean... on the flip side, I disagree with some of the laws in this country. I'm not content to just blindly agree with everything our largely boneheaded legislators come up with, particularly at the local level. That doesn't mean I don't follow laws, but I don't always have to like it.

My point is, we're too easy on violent crimes and too hard on non-violent ones.... in general anyway. That's my only point.


i disagree with some laws in this country too, in particular, i think rape and drug laws are too lax. on this particular one though, i think it works well enough, provided he is punished severely financially and separately by the basketball organization itself.
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Postby thedude » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:43 am

:-t And i thought Randy Moss was a jerk.
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Postby thedude » Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:47 am

That video allowed me to find this video...


http://youtube.com/watch?v=RjE3QFLDFsw
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Postby Amped Sports News » Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:41 am

Far too much "flexing of the genitals" in the NBA if you know what I mean. Everybody's out to prove how tough they are.
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