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HOF Debate: Mark McGwire

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Postby pokerplaya » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:56 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
ukrneal wrote:Forgetting for a moment the steroids issue, I'm not so sure he is a first ballot HOF. His feats with the HR were impressive. If you thibk he should get in for 583 HR and having smashed the record with 75HR, then it's easy.

But while feared for a couple of years, he wasn't really someone who had continued success throughout his career. After his rookie year in 87, it wasn't until '95 that he was really good. HOFs don;t usually hit .201, .235, and .235 near their prime years. Sure, he kept up the HRs, but not much else. Even OBP in those days was nothing impressive.

1995-2000 was impressive. But he reminds me more of Mattingly than Stargell (for example). So maybe he should get in. But based on his numbers, I'd not pick him as a first ballot anyway.


Mac hit 71 HR, not 75.


I believe it was 70 HR's. ;-D
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Postby noseeum » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:11 pm

HOOTIE wrote:http://www.baseball-reference.com/leade ... reer.shtml

11th all-time in OPS+. If that's not HOF, nothing is.

Tony Perez is in with a 5.64 rc/27. Mac is at 8.16. Perez can't sniff Mac. Mac was the premier 1b of his era, with Bagwell. You guys are way to hard on Mac. How many rookies hit 49 hrs?


No one cares about OPS+ when it comes to Hall of Fame voting. OPS maybe, but not OPS+. Most voters don't spend too much time adjusting for parks. Plus, OPS+ and RC/27 completely hide one of McGwire's weaknesses, his inuries earlier and later in his career.

His numbers would likely get him in, but I'd put Frank Thomas in before McGwire.
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Postby Belle4Hall88 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:05 pm

According to "Juiced" Canseco says that Albert Belle, Frank Thomas & Dante Bichette among others were NOT on roids. Their stats compared to McGwire, who anybody that isn't half retarted can tell is/was on roids....

Albert Belle Career Stats/162 games played:
.295 BA, 103 R, 41 2B, 40 HR, 130 RBI, 10 SB, .370 OBP, .564 SLG, .934 OPS

Belle will NOT be a hall of famer after getting only 7.7% of votes last year :-t :-t :-t :-t :-t :-t :-t :-t

Frank Thomas Career Stats/162 games played:
.307 BA, 110 R, 37 2B, 37 HR, 121 RBI, 3 SB, .427 OBP, .568 SLG, .995 OPS

Thomas might get into the hall, but certinly is not a lock.

Dante Bichette:
.299 BA, 89 R, 38 2B, 26 HR, 108 RBI, 14 SB, .336 OBP, .500 SLG

No chance in hell Bichette gets in.

These guys put up #'s without steroids, like McGwire did. So if these guys were juiced, how much better were there numbers be? Belle and Thomas already have superier #'s to Big Mac. If Belle dosn't get in, no way McGwire should. If Thomas dosn't end up getting in, McGwire should not either.
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Postby DK » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:12 pm

Belle4Hall88 wrote:According to "Juiced"


I stopped reading your post here.
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Postby Big Pimpin » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:13 pm

Frank Thomas is a lock IMHO. And I don't think Belle even deserves mention. He had a few good years, but didn't dominate long enough or have a long enough career to justify HoF status. Had he done one or the other, then maybe... But no dice for Joey.
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Postby Belle4Hall88 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:40 pm

a few good years? Yeah I guess you're right, 9 straight 100+ RBI seasons and 8 straight 30+ home run seasons isn't anything to write home about. Those are only Jimmie Foxx/Babe Ruth type numbers. I guess almost single handley taking a team that had finished last in their divison for years and years, a team that had movies made about how bad they were, and taking that team to the World Series and multiple playoff apparences is worthless as well. I don't know what I'm thinking Belle just flat out sucked. 40HRS/130 RBI a year, freaking garbage.
Last edited by Belle4Hall88 on Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby IllinoisBandit » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:42 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:Frank Thomas is a lock IMHO. And I don't think Belle even deserves mention. He had a few good years, but didn't dominate long enough or have a long enough career to justify HoF status. Had he done one or the other, then maybe... But no dice for Joey.


I'd say Belle was dominant for longer than Mac was. I don't think Belle should get in the Hall, he's close but even by the numbers I think he's a little short. Not to mention he wasn't exactly the greatest team player of all time and a horrid defender.

But even so I think Belle was a better hitter than Mac. Neither should get in IMO. Thomas is a lock, though.
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Postby Belle4Hall88 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:47 pm

Just a quick fun fact: Belle had more total bases than McGwire and Sosa both in that historical 1998 season. As a matter of fact, from 1992-2000(the year Belle retired) McGwire only had more total bases then Belle did in two seasons, 97 and 99.
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Postby Big Pimpin » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:54 pm

Belle4Hall88 wrote:a few good years? Yeah I guess you're right, 9 straight 100+ RBI seasons and 8 straight 30+ home run seasons isn't anything to write home about. Those are only Jimmie Foxx/Babe Ruth type numbers. I guess almost single handley taking a team that had finished last in their divison for years and years, a team that had movies made about how bad they were, and taking that team to the World Series and multiple playoff apparences is worthless as well. I don't know what I'm thinking Belle just flat out sucked. 40HRS/130 RBI a year, freaking garbage.


:-b

Belle had exactly two 130 RBI seasons, and three 40 HR seasons. And he had two seasons with a RC/27 of 10 or higher. Big Mac had six of those seasons, which tells me he had more "dominant" seasons. Mac also destroys Belle in career OPS+ (163 to 143). Look 30+ HRs was a lot more impressive when Foxx or Ruth played. Add in the fact that Mac had 200 more career HRs and broke the single season HR record, I think he's in easy.

And while Belle was a fine player in his own right, I just don't think he's that close to being HOF worthy.
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Postby Belle4Hall88 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:50 pm

except Belle put up those numbers without the use of steroids...
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