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HOF Debate: Mark McGwire

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Postby HOOTIE » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:35 pm

The Kavorka wrote:I hope the cheater never gets in.


Who Mays, or Aaron? Too late, they are in. Willie red juice himself. Did Mays diminish the class he was in?

Mac is a top 5 1b. Everyone knows he's a HOF. The writers are going to make a point, and example, and vote no.

Btw, Mac did alot more then hit hrs. He was a better fielder then McCovey or Killebrw. Macs eye was 2nd only to Bonds.
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Postby j_d_mcnugent » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:36 pm

BritSox wrote:I'll leave it to WR to refute that one, as he does it so much more eloquently than i do.


i admit i dont have the legal background to say anything about it definitively.

i understand mlb had no power whatsoever to suspend a player for taking steroids. that wasnt part of the CBA.

however, i am under the impression the commissioner didnt necessarily need player approval to effect a rule change. he could invoke the best interest clause to make a rule prohibiting the usage of steroids. he could not invoke the best interest clause to punish any player. so you would have a rule being broken but nothing that could be done about it. of course there is the issue that the memo probably didnt even officially invoke the best interest clause. thats my un-expert opinion on the matter.
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Postby HOOTIE » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:40 pm

IllinoisBandit wrote:No way he should get in. His numbers aren't even all that great! Other than HR's he is quite mediocre.

.263 BA
1626 Hits
1414 RBI

He NEVER won an MVP.

Honestly I believe he and Jose Canseco are very comparable. Only Jose WON an MVP and had speed (40/40 guy). The only difference is that they peaked at different times.


Bad scouting.

Mac 683 BRAA
Canseco 423

Mac rc/27 8.16
Canseco rc/27 6.23
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Postby ukrneal » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:11 am

Forgetting for a moment the steroids issue, I'm not so sure he is a first ballot HOF. His feats with the HR were impressive. If you thibk he should get in for 583 HR and having smashed the record with 75HR, then it's easy.

But while feared for a couple of years, he wasn't really someone who had continued success throughout his career. After his rookie year in 87, it wasn't until '95 that he was really good. HOFs don;t usually hit .201, .235, and .235 near their prime years. Sure, he kept up the HRs, but not much else. Even OBP in those days was nothing impressive.

1995-2000 was impressive. But he reminds me more of Mattingly than Stargell (for example). So maybe he should get in. But based on his numbers, I'd not pick him as a first ballot anyway.
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Postby IllinoisBandit » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:09 am

McGwire's career outside of that 5 years span isn't even remotely close to being HOF worthy. And let's be honest, you can't really count stats during that 5 year span the way you do the rest of history. One word (nto really): Brady Anderson.

Call it steroids. Call it hard baseballs. Call it expansion thinning pitching. Call it whatever you want. Something wasn't right in baseball.

McGwire and Sosa were the main beneficiaries of those years. There are WAY too many guys playing right now that will end up with similar stats that aren't going to be HOF's. They merely hit that era at the wrong time.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:08 am

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leade ... reer.shtml

11th all-time in OPS+. If that's not HOF, nothing is.

Tony Perez is in with a 5.64 rc/27. Mac is at 8.16. Perez can't sniff Mac. Mac was the premier 1b of his era, with Bagwell. You guys are way to hard on Mac. How many rookies hit 49 hrs?
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:11 am

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leade ... reer.shtml

11th all-time in OPS+. If that's not HOF, nothing is.

Tony Perez is in with a 5.64 rc/27. Mac is at 8.16. Perez can't sniff Mac. Mac was the premier 1b of his era, with Bagwell. You guys are way to hard on Mac. How many rookies hit 49 hrs?
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Postby bigh0rt » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:46 pm

ukrneal wrote:Forgetting for a moment the steroids issue, I'm not so sure he is a first ballot HOF. His feats with the HR were impressive. If you thibk he should get in for 583 HR and having smashed the record with 75HR, then it's easy.

But while feared for a couple of years, he wasn't really someone who had continued success throughout his career. After his rookie year in 87, it wasn't until '95 that he was really good. HOFs don;t usually hit .201, .235, and .235 near their prime years. Sure, he kept up the HRs, but not much else. Even OBP in those days was nothing impressive.

1995-2000 was impressive. But he reminds me more of Mattingly than Stargell (for example). So maybe he should get in. But based on his numbers, I'd not pick him as a first ballot anyway.


Mac hit 71 HR, not 75.
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Postby Big Pimpin » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:55 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
ukrneal wrote:Forgetting for a moment the steroids issue, I'm not so sure he is a first ballot HOF. His feats with the HR were impressive. If you thibk he should get in for 583 HR and having smashed the record with 75HR, then it's easy.

But while feared for a couple of years, he wasn't really someone who had continued success throughout his career. After his rookie year in 87, it wasn't until '95 that he was really good. HOFs don;t usually hit .201, .235, and .235 near their prime years. Sure, he kept up the HRs, but not much else. Even OBP in those days was nothing impressive.

1995-2000 was impressive. But he reminds me more of Mattingly than Stargell (for example). So maybe he should get in. But based on his numbers, I'd not pick him as a first ballot anyway.


Mac hit 71 HR, not 75.


No, he hit 70, not 71. ;-)
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Postby mweir145 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 4:55 pm

Of course McGwire should get in, and while it may not be first ballot, he eventually will.
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