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Abstinence-only education

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Postby chadlincoln » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:02 pm

acsguitar wrote:Anyways I would rather have a car with 0 miles yes. But I also don't wanna pay 60 grand for a new car when I can spend 25 grand for one that runs well and is still pretty sweet
What if the previous owner ran the car into the ground? ;-7 ;-7 I kid. I kid.
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Postby 5 » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:05 pm

Of course religion has to enter this discussion. How do you think this program started...pressure from the 700 Club fans & company.
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Postby chadlincoln » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:23 pm

5 wrote:Of course religion has to enter this discussion. How do you think this program started...pressure from the 700 Club fans & company.
:-? Where did that come from? Link?
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Postby Art Vandelay » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:28 pm

chadlincoln wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
Coppermine wrote:If teenagers were allowed to make their own decisions without demonizing premarital sex as a horrible sin, then there wouldn't be this "emotional baggage." It's not like those after school specials where Suzy is being pressured into having sex by her boyfriend, and when she does, she falls into a deep depression. It's like those movies where someone smokes a joint and starts running around shooting people. Are you kidding? Have you ever seen someone after smoking a joint? The only thing I have to worry about is them getting to my doritos.
Premarital sex is a sin. Lying is a sin. God doesn't rank sin. Sin is sin. I wouldn't call it horrible.


This is exactly why I hate when religion gets brought into this argument (or most arguments for that matter). You act as if it is an undisputed truth that premarital sex is a sin (for the sake of this discussion I'll grant you that there is, indeed, such thing as "sin"). Instead of saying, "I think premarital sex is a sin" or "I would not practice premarital sex because my beliefs tell me it's sinful," you say, simply, "premarital sex is a sin."

Your religious beliefs should not determine other people's actions.

You're right, my beliefs shouldn't determine how you act just like yours don't determine how I act. I thought that when I post, you would obviously note that it is what I believe. So now do I have to post my words and have the disclaimer that this is what I believe? It's my post. You should know it's my opinion and belief. I'll state what I believe in any manner I want to just like you can state in whatever manner you want to. I say it's a sin because that's what I believe. You say it isn't because that's what you believe. I know that's your belief. I don't have to ask you to be 'clear' or politically correct. I have thick skin.

Religion got brought into the arguement because those are two major sides of the debate- don't do it for moral/religious reasons or don't do it for physical reasons. I posted both. I'm not trying to offend you. I'm posting what I believe and I don't expect you to believe what I do or to live how I live.


You didn't offend me, not in the least, and I obviously need to be more clear when I post

. When I said "you" I didn't actually mean you, Chadlincoln, which I know sounds weird, since I quoted you. But I've heard and read very similar things come from many different people regarding this debate. I meant the abstract you, which is basically everyone who isn't me...haha. And also, I absolutely think that religion has its place in this discussion when it takes place on an internet message board. Where I don't think it has a place is when we are talking about actual policies to be put in place in public schools. What the bible or god says about premarital sex should have nothing to do with what the schools teach about it. When people of influence try to force their religion on everyone's children is when I think it doesn't belong
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Postby RugbyD » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:32 pm

read some posts, but no time to catch up with all of them. anyways:

public schools should have no part in this. it is the parents' responsibility to handle things like this. there will be some overlap in health classes, but as far as all the how-to stuff goes, parents need to be parents, not just shelter-providers. if parents choose to assign this responsibility to a private school with their own $$, then fine, but taxpayers should not have their money spent on personal issues just because some parents suck. not my problem; don't make me pay for it.

i think sex-ed is way overvalued in general. my parents were incredibly responsible and i had plenty of info at my fingertips and found out whatever else i wanted to know very easily. and yet i still made some bad decisions in the overall risk/reward sense (though with no repercussions thank goodness).
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Postby chadlincoln » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:36 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
chadlincoln wrote:
Coppermine wrote:If teenagers were allowed to make their own decisions without demonizing premarital sex as a horrible sin, then there wouldn't be this "emotional baggage." It's not like those after school specials where Suzy is being pressured into having sex by her boyfriend, and when she does, she falls into a deep depression. It's like those movies where someone smokes a joint and starts running around shooting people. Are you kidding? Have you ever seen someone after smoking a joint? The only thing I have to worry about is them getting to my doritos.
Premarital sex is a sin. Lying is a sin. God doesn't rank sin. Sin is sin. I wouldn't call it horrible.


This is exactly why I hate when religion gets brought into this argument (or most arguments for that matter). You act as if it is an undisputed truth that premarital sex is a sin (for the sake of this discussion I'll grant you that there is, indeed, such thing as "sin"). Instead of saying, "I think premarital sex is a sin" or "I would not practice premarital sex because my beliefs tell me it's sinful," you say, simply, "premarital sex is a sin."

Your religious beliefs should not determine other people's actions.

You're right, my beliefs shouldn't determine how you act just like yours don't determine how I act. I thought that when I post, you would obviously note that it is what I believe. So now do I have to post my words and have the disclaimer that this is what I believe? It's my post. You should know it's my opinion and belief. I'll state what I believe in any manner I want to just like you can state in whatever manner you want to. I say it's a sin because that's what I believe. You say it isn't because that's what you believe. I know that's your belief. I don't have to ask you to be 'clear' or politically correct. I have thick skin.

Religion got brought into the arguement because those are two major sides of the debate- don't do it for moral/religious reasons or don't do it for physical reasons. I posted both. I'm not trying to offend you. I'm posting what I believe and I don't expect you to believe what I do or to live how I live.


You didn't offend me, not in the least, and I obviously need to be more clear when I post

. When I said "you" I didn't actually mean you, Chadlincoln, which I know sounds weird, since I quoted you. But I've heard and read very similar things come from many different people regarding this debate. I meant the abstract you, which is basically everyone who isn't me...haha. And also, I absolutely think that religion has its place in this discussion when it takes place on an internet message board. Where I don't think it has a place is when we are talking about actual policies to be put in place in public schools. What the bible or god says about premarital sex should have nothing to do with what the schools teach about it. When people of influence try to force their religion on everyone's children is when I think it doesn't belong
Gotcha. Now that the religion part of it is out of the way, I think that there should be clear information given to students in public schools about the problems they could have from having sex before marriage- STD's, unplanned pregnancy, etc. I do think that parents should teach their own kids but when it comes to schools, the only thing I think that should be given is stats and info and allow them to ask questions- ;-7
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Postby Coppermine » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:37 pm

acsguitar wrote:I think Chad is just trying to show both sides. He's telling us its a sin from his point of view but if its not a sin from ours then so be it. It's all what you believe. I'm a sinner if I'm a christian and I'm not if I'm well me.

Chad isn't very pushy with religion IMO so I understand.




I agree with this; I'm not a religious person and I think Chad understands that; so he's helping me make sense of why I can't understand that people let religious guidelines determine for them what is right or wrong, sinful or righteous, for or against God, and so on and so forth. The argument he gave was perfectly understandable and it is the argument I generally hear. I also firmly believe, and perhaps this is just coming from someone who is a product of Christianity, yet not a practicer, that much of the words, phrases, nomenclature and metaphorical scenarios presented in the Bible are very much open to interpretation. For instance, what was the Bible truly trying to convey through the term adultery? I consider adultery what we would simply call "cheating on your spouse," and that's basically what Chad said...you sleep with someone who isn't your wife/husband, you have committed adultery. But to me, that's open to interpretation, because the Bible does not explicitly say that you must be married in order to have sex with someone (I think the Bible uses the technical term of "getting laid").

The Bible and the 10 Commandments as they are set, are basically a guideline for what constitutes sin, at least to a certain degree. Almost all of the commandments explicitly consider sin to be an action that has a negative effect on someone else or undermines the word of God. For instance, worshipping other gods, false idols, misusing God's name; these are those which undermine God, the basis of the Christian faith.

On the other hand are the commandments which in some way harm your fellow man; stealing, murder, lying; these things have the potential to cause harm. Coveting, well, I'm not so sure that's such a big deal, but that one seems ambiguous given its relation to other commandments. Plus, honor thy mother and father; Moses had to throw that one in because of the children of Mt. Sinai were particularly unruly those days.

But committing adultery, in the sense that you "cheat" on your spouse, does harm to your spouse and perhaps yourself. After all, the largest basis of marriage, particularly in Biblical times, was to secure land ownership rights and to pass such along to future generations. If adultery is being unmarried and having sex, then this entire, drawn out, ridiculous post and the point I was trying to make (which clearly got lost along the way) are useless. But you see what i mean. I'm trying to justify living with my girlfriend and the scorn I receive from some of the more devout members of my community.
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Postby acsguitar » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:40 pm

chadlincoln wrote:
acsguitar wrote:Anyways I would rather have a car with 0 miles yes. But I also don't wanna pay 60 grand for a new car when I can spend 25 grand for one that runs well and is still pretty sweet
What if the previous owner ran the car into the ground? ;-7 ;-7 I kid. I kid.


:)

Well as long as there isn't any oil leakage I think i'll be ok.
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Postby mak1277 » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:43 pm

In a public school, I think it is completely irresponsible to teach kids only one side of any issue. This goes for abstinence, evolution, and anything else. The point of school is to learn...if you only teach abstinence, you are impeding the right (and yes, it's a right) of the students to learn (about safe sex, STD's, etc.).

The stark reality, though, is that no matter what is taught to kids, they are going to act based on the morals instilled in them by their parents. It's even MORE irresponsible for parents to ignore this topic (or drugs/alcohol/tobacco) and drop it in the lap of the schools to teach their kids.
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Postby Coppermine » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:56 pm

chadlincoln wrote:
Coppermine wrote:The only reason why sex is built up as this big, scary, unusual thing carrying loads of emotional baggage, is because it's built up that way by schools, churchs and parents. Yet our inherent biology drives us to have sex, particularly in those teenage years when things are most confusing.

Do we have a sex drive? Sure. Like I said, sex is good. I'm sure you've heard the example that sex is like fire- in a stove- good, in the rest of your house-bad. So you're saying there is no emotional attatchment that takes place during sex? There are those who claim to have 'inherent biology' to murder people. Does that make it ok since they have a drive to do it? Pediphiles had a drive. Is that wrong? Rapists have a drive. Is that wrong? The point I'm trying to make here is that just because our body desires things doesn't make them right to do.


I do just have to comment on this. As for emotional attachment, first of all, I think that depends on the individual. Some people may have a strong emotional attachment and feel the need to have sex only with someone they care deeply about. Others, not so much. There's no right or wrong, but if there is a strong emotional attachment that does take place, before during and after, then that's something that, again, is the responsibility of the individual.

As for biological drive, there are few things that all humans, and in that respect, all special on earth have in common. One is to eat and drink. Another is to reproduce. The drive to have sex is one that is common among all humans, and not just the deviates of our society. Although pedophiles may have a drive to have sex with children, most people do not. That is a deviation from the norm, which is simply to want to "mate." That argument can be compounded by the Christian belief that all acts of sex should be with the specific purpose of reproduction; hence why birth control is not permitted. Protestants clearly wised up to such a ludicrous notion and from what I understand, don't have a specific condemnation of birth control among married couples. My argument is that the biological need to have sex is universally common; and not the exception such as the examples you cited.
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