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Nomo for Cy Young!!!

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Postby LCBOY » Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:40 pm

pkarr5000 wrote:russ ortiz makes me sick. put someone like tim hudson or mark prior on that team and you have a 25 game winner from both


I think a great pitcher on the Braves (i.e. Hudosn, Prior, Shmidt, etc) might have a shot at 30 wins.
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Postby Lofunzo » Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:20 pm

Super GM wrote:I'm usually not this drastic, but this is crap! I mean how has Ortiz not been dominating? He has an NL leading 17 wins! And that's not dominating?


Super.......You ARE that drastic when it comes to the Braves. I wouldn't be surprised if you started pushing Giles for MVP. :-D

While Ortiz is having a very good year, a Cy Young winner should be dominating or at least close to it. The only area where that is true of Ortiz is wins and that is just as much a team number as it is his pitching. Looking at his other numbers:

IP - 172.2
H - 142 (nice)
K - 116
BB - 82
ERA - 3.49
WHIP - 1.30


He has 34 more K's than walks. Anyone that has given up 30 less hits than IP, should have a better WHIP than that. That is hardly Cy Young material. Being a finesse pitcher is fine but you gotta have better control than that. My guess is that if no NL starter finishes really strong, we might be looking at Gagne or Smoltz for the award.
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Postby ramble2 » Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:41 pm

Super GM wrote:
ramble2 wrote:
jdh wrote:Here are the legitimate contenders:

Brown: 12-6, 2.25 ERA
Schmidt: 12-5, 2.37 ERA
Ortiz: 17-5, 3.45 ERA
Williams: 14-6, 3.52 ERA
Nomo: 15-9, 2.70 ERA
Prior: 12-5, 2.54 ERA
L. Hernandez: 13-7, 2.97


That'd be a shame if Ortiz won it. He simply has not been as dominant as those other pitchers. Voters tend to put a large emphasis on wins (for better or worse - but that's a different debate), but Ortiz is too far back in the pack in ERA to warrant giving him the award. I think the original post brings up a good point. A strong case can be made that Nomo is the leading candidate among starting pitchers.


I'm usually not this drastic, but this is crap! I mean how has Ortiz not been dominating? He has an NL leading 17 wins! And that's not dominating?



You're right that Ortiz has dominated with regard to wins - but that's it. Ortiz isn't a power pitcher, so his relatively low K total shouldn't be held against him. But if he isn't a power pitcher, then he should have better control numbers, and his WHIP, frankly, is not Cy Young caliber. I'm not knocking Ortiz. I think he's a great pitcher, and I think he's a valuable player on either a fantasy squad or a real squad. But all things equal, if my team had a choice of facing Ortiz or, say, Prior or Nomo, I'd take my chances with Ortiz every time. I said it'd be a shame if Ortiz won because I don't think Ortiz is the best starting pitcher in the NL. If he finishes strong and pulls down that ERA and WHIP, then I'll recant.

Anyway, of the Braves pitchers, do you really think that Ortiz is more deserving than Smoltz?

(P.S. In looking up Ortiz's K numbers I noticed the following:

Ortiz Ks: 116
Gagne Ks: 113
Smoltz Ks 64

I still maintain that, thus far, Gagne should be considered the Cy Young front-runner.)
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Postby reiser » Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:34 pm

hehe. Nomo is certainly my Fantasy Cy Young!
what a stud he's been, and I too got him in late rounds (mid teen's I think).

I hate to defend Russ Ortiz but he has one of the lowest BAA in the majors. but I think it should go to Gagne-if he makes it through a season without blowing a *single* save?! incredible.

besides, the real crime is in the AL, where Loaiza is certain to be overlooked because no one still believes he's having that good of a year.
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Postby Madison » Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:29 am

reiser wrote:besides, the real crime is in the AL, where Loaiza is certain to be overlooked because no one still believes he's having that good of a year.


Oh, I believe it. I just think he's got a pact with the devil or something. :-D
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Postby reiser » Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:28 pm

Madison wrote:
reiser wrote:besides, the real crime is in the AL, where Loaiza is certain to be overlooked because no one still believes he's having that good of a year.


Oh, I believe it. I just think he's got a pact with the devil or something. :-D


hehe. no, I think it's something far more nefarious-the White Sox are actually good. the horror.
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Postby warrick95 » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:13 pm

Here are the two sides to the whole "wins" argument.

The first being, the job of the pitcher is to get his team the win and that is the most important thing for him to do. It doesn't matter how many he Ks, or how many times he loads the bases and gets out of the jam, because he's still getting the job done and winning the game for his team. Ks don't get you into the playoffs. A low WHIP doesn't get you into the playoffs if you don't win. Neither does a low ERA. Wins are what get you into the playoffs and that is what Russ Ortiz has done all year.

The other side of the argument, is that the Cy Young should go to the pitcher that has been the most dominant pitcher, period. Certainly, Russ Ortiz hasn't been more dominant than Nomo, Prior, etc. Thus, you will underrate the W category and overrate the other categories. If you believe in voting for the most dominant pitcher, you also have to take into consideration the team the pitcher plays on, as that affects some of his numbers.

It all depends on whether you think the pitcher who gets the job done and wins should get the award, or the most dominant pitcher. I personally think the most dominant pitcher should get it, because that man is truly the best pitcher in the game, without looking at extenuating factors, like the team the man plays for. The Cy Young, to me, should be a personal award and not an award for the whole team (Russ Ortiz is carried on the shoulders of the Braves' offense).
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Postby DK » Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:46 pm

i think smoltz over gagne, simply because a strikeout isn't worth more than a groundout in baseball. they're both dominating, and gagne hasn't even blown a save this season, but if the dodgers (heaven forbid) make it to the series and lose, when the CY voters look at his allstar blown save, that's gonna come back and bite him in the ass. smoltz' pitching has everyone scared. i know a couple of mets players, and one said that smoltz was the hardest pitcher to hit in baseball. i gotta believe him.
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Postby ramble2 » Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:48 pm

DK wrote:i think smoltz over gagne, simply because a strikeout isn't worth more than a groundout in baseball. they're both dominating, and gagne hasn't even blown a save this season, but if the dodgers (heaven forbid) make it to the series and lose, when the CY voters look at his allstar blown save, that's gonna come back and bite him in the ass. smoltz' pitching has everyone scared. i know a couple of mets players, and one said that smoltz was the hardest pitcher to hit in baseball. i gotta believe him.


Sorry, but your argument doesn't strike me as very convincing. Let me go through it point by point to show you why.

DK wrote:i think smoltz over gagne, simply because a strikeout isn't worth more than a groundout in baseball.


Fair enough that a strikeout is as good as a groundout. the fact remains, however, that when a pitcher has struck out 113 batters in 66 innings he is dominant! That's not an argument against Smoltz, but FOR Gagne. The point you make fails to make a case for Smoltz OVER Gagne, it simply asks us to disregard the strikeout.

But before we dismiss the Ks, let's look at those numbers for a second. 66 IP. 113 Ks. That's almost two strikeouts an inning! That is about as dominant as you are going to find. Simply because a strikeout and a groundout both count as a single out doesn't mean we should ignore an incredible K/IP ratio.

DK wrote:they're both dominating, and gagne hasn't even blown a save this season, but if the dodgers (heaven forbid) make it to the series and lose, when the CY voters look at his allstar blown save, that's gonna come back and bite him in the ass.


I'm not sure what your point is here. Why in the world are voters going to care at all about the All-Star game blown save? If any voter actually gave that as a justification I would lose all respect for him. That fact that he has so many damn saves without a single blown save is amazing.

DK wrote:i know a couple of mets players, and one said that smoltz was the hardest pitcher to hit in baseball. i gotta believe him.


I don't know any pro baseball players. So I can't verify whether or not Gagne is hard to hit, easy to hit or what. I believe that Smoltz is probably one of the three or four toughest pitchers to hit in baseball. But c'mon, it's not like Gagne is a pushover! Again, I'm not sure how much this point helps your case.

Look, I think it's a close call between Gagne and Smoltz. Right now though, I think Gagne has a slight lead over Smoltz. The zero blown saves is damn impressive, as is his K/IP ratio. If Gagne blows a couple before the season is over, or if Smoltz pulls away from Gagne in the saves category, then I can see Smoltz pulling ahead of Gagne in the CY race.
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Postby PresHabib » Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:52 pm

Russ Ortiz and his 17 wins are NOT dominating. Wins and Losses are the most over rated stats in pitching. Too often (not always, but often) they are a function of a teams good (or bad, Nomo) offense. In only THREE of Ortiz' 17 wins have the braves scored fewer than 5 runs.

I am one of those people who constantly posts negative things about Nomo..but after not folding after a few starts beyond the all star break i had to admit i was wrong...hell recieve a few cy young votes, but i dont think he will win.

In my mind, the way the closers have been over in the NL, one of them has to get it. I see the top five looking something like this.

1 - Gagne
2 - Smoltz
3 - Schmidt
4 - Prior
5 - Nomo

Wild cards is Brandon Webb. You just cant argue with what 17 out of 17 quality starts...i think its more than that but im not sure.
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