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Postby DK » Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:58 pm

tianyi86 wrote:What joke r u referring to DK?


One Havok made a couple pages ago about Piazza's passed balls and lack of defensive ability.
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Postby blankman » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:09 pm

blankman wrote:Now that you're here,

Matthias wrote:Jeter is probably the 5th-10th best shortstop of HIS time and MAYBE the 50th-100th best shortstop of ALL time.


Just who are those 50+ shortstops that would rank ahead of Jeter?


Still waiting...
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Postby Havok1517 » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:11 pm

DK wrote:
tianyi86 wrote:What joke r u referring to DK?


One Havok made a couple pages ago about Piazza's passed balls and lack of defensive ability.


Actually, the joke was 2 errant throws (which is very accurate) and 1 passed ball. Tell me, why IRod has been in just about every All-Star Game since he's played, won a gold glove just about every year, and even won a MVP.

I'm not saying Piazza isn't hall worthy at all but I don't think he's as good as IRod over all. I think your biased as a Met fan. I'm confident that if mangers and players could choose between Piazza and IRod the choice would be IRod most of the time and the same will go for the Hall of Fame voters.
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Postby davidmarver » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:24 pm

DK wrote:Runs and RBI are mainly team-based and circumstancial, so those get thrown out when trying to do an individual analysis. SB's are basically worthless, especially for a catcher (and when you factor in the CS% rate it's really no difference between the two).

SBs are not worthless. It's stretching a single/walk into a double; think of the difference in SLG if it were incorporated that way. Also...RBI are a lot more team-dependent than runs. Granted both take some degree of team-dependency, but it's easier to get lucky in RBI than it is runs.

DK wrote:RC:
Piazza: 1322, 153
Pudge: 1207, 120

In short, Piazza dominates Pudge in all the meaningful offensive statistics. Defensively? Of course Pudge is better. There's no real question. Even though Piazza is underrated for his defense - he's good at blocking the plate but has an F arm - Pudge is, subjectively and objectively, a better defender. But the offensive difference contributed by Piazza is so great that it overtakes any defensive difference between the two.

Pudge, in his career, has accumulated 119 BRAA, while Piazza has 488. 8-o Defensively, though, Pudge has accumulated 191 FRAA, while Piazza comes in at a negative 137. Combined, you're looking at Pudge at 310 Runs Above Average, while Piazza is at 351 Runs Above Average.

Pudge's WARP3 (Wins Above Replacement Player) is 116.2, while Piazza's is 96.8.

So while Piazza's offensive numbers do annihilate Pudge's, he's been nothing but a liability on defense while Pudge has held down the fort with the best of them, making their relative outputs fairly comparable.
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Postby DK » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:25 pm

Havok1517 wrote:
DK wrote:
tianyi86 wrote:What joke r u referring to DK?


One Havok made a couple pages ago about Piazza's passed balls and lack of defensive ability.


Actually, the joke was 2 errant throws (which is very accurate) and 1 passed ball. Tell me, why IRod has been in just about every All-Star Game since he's played, won a gold glove just about every year, and even won a MVP.

I'm not saying Piazza isn't hall worthy at all but I don't think he's as good as IRod over all. I think your biased as a Met fan. I'm confident that if mangers and players could choose between Piazza and IRod the choice would be IRod most of the time and the same will go for the Hall of Fame voters.


See post above and show me one place where I mentioned him because of the fact that he's a Met ANYWHERE in this thread as my reasoning for him as a HoF.

Was I lying? Are all those offensive numbers compiled by secret Met-loving Pudge haters?
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Postby DK » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:28 pm

davidmarver wrote:
DK wrote:Runs and RBI are mainly team-based and circumstancial, so those get thrown out when trying to do an individual analysis. SB's are basically worthless, especially for a catcher (and when you factor in the CS% rate it's really no difference between the two).

SBs are not worthless. It's stretching a single/walk into a double; think of the difference in SLG if it were incorporated that way. Also...RBI are a lot more team-dependent than runs. Granted both take some degree of team-dependency, but it's easier to get lucky in RBI than it is runs.

DK wrote:RC:
Piazza: 1322, 153
Pudge: 1207, 120

In short, Piazza dominates Pudge in all the meaningful offensive statistics. Defensively? Of course Pudge is better. There's no real question. Even though Piazza is underrated for his defense - he's good at blocking the plate but has an F arm - Pudge is, subjectively and objectively, a better defender. But the offensive difference contributed by Piazza is so great that it overtakes any defensive difference between the two.

Pudge, in his career, has accumulated 119 BRAA, while Piazza has 488. 8-o Defensively, though, Pudge has accumulated 191 FRAA, while Piazza comes in at a negative 137. Combined, you're looking at Pudge at 310 Runs Above Average, while Piazza is at 351 Runs Above Average.

Pudge's WARP3 (Wins Above Replacement Player) is 116.2, while Piazza's is 96.8.

So while Piazza's offensive numbers do annihilate Pudge's, he's been nothing but a liability on defense while Pudge has held down the fort with the best of them, making their relative outputs fairly comparable.


A) Fair enough about the SB's. It's not that much of a difference, though.

B) I'm curious how Piazza is 41 runs better than Pudge, but Pudge's WARP3 numbers are better than Piazza's.
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Postby joshheines » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:30 pm

Baseball Prospectus is the most reliable sabermetric website out there and I would recommend it to anyone interested in stats. Based on their research they have been able to quantify how many runs a player saves at a defensive position and how many wins a player gave his team over a replacement level player (A AAA guy) or an average player (average for position in a given league.

Let's end the non-sense of arguing Jeter v. other contemporaries and Piazza v. Pudge. I'm going into this blind and researching and typing at the same time. If wrong, I'll admit it.

First up, Piazza v. Pudge.

Pudge provided 99.8 wins more than a replacement player during his career through 2005. Compared to the average catcher, Pudge saved his team 193 runs during his career. Piazza has provided 93.4 wins more than a replacement player. Piazza has cost his teams 142 runs during his career. That's not the end of the story because that accounts for the entire career.

Pudge has played in 1961 games in his career. Piazza has played in 1772 games in his career. Let's divide games/WARP (wins above replacement) to see how many wins provided per game and per 162 games.

Pudge is worth .05089 wins per game or 8.24 wins per 162 games.
Piazza is worth .05270 wins per game or 8.54 wins per 162 games.

It's close and closer than I expected. Even factoring in defense, Piazza was the better player, although it could be argued that Pudge was the more productive player through his career.

For S's and giggles:

Yogi Berra was worth .05202 wins per game or 8.43 wins per 162 games.
Johnny Bench was worth .05690 wins per game or 9.22 wins per 162 games.
Carlton Fisk was worth .04305 wins per game or 6.97 wins per 162 games.

Based on these rankins the top five catchers of all time are 1) Bench 2) Piazza 3) Berra 4) Pudge 5) Fisk.

I'll end this post and start a new one for SS.
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Postby blankman » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:36 pm

All these stats are nice, but its hard to believe that they capture the game as well as they would want you to think.
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Postby joshheines » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:58 pm

Derek Jeter for his two gold gloves has actually cost the yankees 119 runs in the field versus the average SS.

Jeter's worth 6.45 wins per 162 games.
A-Rod's worth 9.79 wins per 162 games.
Nomar's worth 7.88 wins per 162 games
Tejada's worth 6.28 wins per 162 games
Larkin's worht 7.95 wins per 162 games.
Vizquel's worth 4.73 wins per 162 games.
Renteria's worth 4.71 wins per 162 games.
Ripken's worth 7.06 wins per 162 games.
Ozzie Smith's worth 7.77 wins per 162 games (I guess his D was that good!)
Rizzutto's worth 6.75 wins per 162 games.
Yount's worth 6.45 wins per 162
ERnie Banks was worth 7.88 wins per 162 games
Aparicio was 5.71 wins per 162
Appling was wroth 8.45 wins per 162
Tramell was worth 6.97 wins per 162

Based on numbers Jeter's a questionanble HOF guy. Yount and his 6.45 wins per 162 are in, but Tramell's 6.97 is not. Jeter will get in, but I hope this refutes his greatness compared to his contemporaries. My list prior to knowing this information was spot on. With his contemporaries, Jeter is ranked 5th of 8 behind A-Rod, Ripken, Nomar and Larkin and ahead of Tejada, Renteria and Vizquel.
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Postby joshheines » Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:00 pm

blankman wrote:All these stats are nice, but its hard to believe that they capture the game as well as they would want you to think.


Find me a better way to quantify a player's defensive impact. I'll take those stats over ever single person's here limited experience in watching a player and then attempting to quanitfy range, arm, accuracy, etc. It's the best thing we got going.
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