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Ozzie shoots off at the mouth again

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Postby Zito is God » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:12 pm

markj11 wrote:
jnormy wrote: But suppose you were being cursed at and called an a-hole and an idiot in front of a whole bunch of people you didn't know?


Yes my feelings would be hurt and I would probly cry and use the word slander because I want a whole bunch of people I don't know to know that I really am not an idiot.


Are you one of those people that claims they don't care what people think about them when in reality they fail to see that everyone in the world cares plenty of what others think and conformity rules all whether you realize it or not (think blue jeans my friend).

If you can honestly tell me that the scenario I proposed, where you are ridiculed on national television would not hurt you at all, well, then I'd call you a liar my friend.
Sean Tracey has my apologies, we all know Ozzie Guillen is an idiot. I'm rooting for you!
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Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:15 pm

Zito is God wrote:Slader - The public uttering of a false statement that harms the good reputation of another. The statement must be made to, or within the hearing of, persons other then the defamed party.


The legal definition of slander, and the one you just gave, are not one in the same. The definition you posted is a very broad, general definition of slander, but has nothing to do with the law.
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Postby markj11 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:21 pm

Zito is God wrote:
markj11 wrote:
jnormy wrote: But suppose you were being cursed at and called an a-hole and an idiot in front of a whole bunch of people you didn't know?


Yes my feelings would be hurt and I would probly cry and use the word slander because I want a whole bunch of people I don't know to know that I really am not an idiot.


Are you one of those people that claims they don't care what people think about them when in reality they fail to see that everyone in the world cares plenty of what others think and conformity rules all whether you realize it or not (think blue jeans my friend).

If you can honestly tell me that the scenario I proposed, where you are ridiculed on national television would not hurt you at all, well, then I'd call you a liar my friend.


National television was not mentioned, a whole bunch of people I don't know, was mentioned. National television would include people I know. No, I do not care what people I dont knwo think about me. That is too much weight for someone to carry, always wonder what that person in grocery store thinks, come on. I do care what my family and friends think about me. So you are calling me a liar? That's hilarious.
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Postby RugbyD » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:42 pm

Zito is God wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Zito is God wrote:I love all these "free speech" jokers looking at themselves as martyrs and believe they are protecting the bill of rights.

Lets get one thing straight here, I am a extreme liberal, I believe in civil rights and liberties and everything else like freedom of speech or religion. What Ozzie is doing is also in our little law book, and it is called "slander".

Take this example: Lets say my dad owns Fox Networks, so I ask him to get me a free 15 minutes of airtime and I go on saying this: "(insert your real name here) is a m$%&*r f$%#*(g moron ladies and gentlemen of America. He is a retarded fag wh can't man up to his words, hes a sissy with little girl arms and he smells bad when he walks up and down the street, its very gross." And lets say I do this 3 times a week (about as much as Ozzie shoots off nowadays), are you honestly telling me you won't throw your martyr attitude for free speech in the trash and go crying to the cops for harrasment and slander?! Teah, thought so.

Either you don't know what slander means, or you think being gay is bad/wrong. Which is it?


Are you blind or just responding to another post? Where in the world did I indicate I think being gay is wrong?

Now, as for slander:

Slader - The public uttering of a false statement that harms the good reputation of another. The statement must be made to, or within the hearing of, persons other then the defamed party.

I think you don't know what slander means my friend. Calling someone a fag on national TV is most certainly slander, if not harrasment.

lets use the working definition from legaldictionary.com:

oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed.

For Ozzie's statements to be slanderous, they have to cause harm to the reputation of JM (hurt feelings don't count). All of this, by the way, assumes that Ozzie was specifically claiming that JM enjoys relations with men. If there is nothing wrong with being gay, then there is no harm to the reputation of JM, and therefore no slander. If you think this was slander, then by default you must think that there is something wrong with being gay.

Another way to look at it is if Ozzie did not intend to accuse JM of homosexual relations, but rather was using the word in a commonly colloquial and general pejorative sense similar to how someone would use 'douchebag'. JM is not harmed b/c someone called him a douchebag or similar equivalent, therefore no slander.

Ozzie may be colorfully and inappropriately uncouth, but he is no slanderer.

you seem to confuse statements that are merely offensive with ones that are truly slanderous.
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:49 pm

Ozzie Guillen shouldn't have said what he said but he has every right to say it. I don't believe he's crossed the line for slander nor for a 'hate crime' here.

At the same time the White Sox have every right to can Ozzie if they feel he's hurting the image of the team (and thereby hurting their bottom line). While Ozzie may not have crossed the line for slander or for a hate crime he probably has crossed the line here as far as hurting the White Sox and Major League Baseball. It's up to those two organizations as to how they want to deal with that.

Free speech means getting to say anything you choose (within the free speech restrictions in the constitution) without fear of being jailed by the government. It doesn't mean you can say whatever you want without fear of pissing off a large number of people, getting fined by your employer or losing your job. If Ozzie continues acting the way he's been acting recently he's in danger of all three of those things coming to pass.
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Postby mikhayl » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:49 pm

RugbyD wrote:For Ozzie's statements to be slanderous, they have to cause harm to the reputation of JM (hurt feelings don't count). All of this, by the way, assumes that Ozzie was specifically claiming that JM enjoys relations with men. If there is nothing wrong with being gay, then there is no harm to the reputation of JM, and therefore no slander. If you think this was slander, then by default you must think that there is something wrong with being gay.


What I bolded is not necessarily true. Many states, I'm not sure about IL, do not offer the same legal protections to homosexuals that they do to heterosexuals. For example, many states permit employment discrimination against homosexuals. Depending on where JM worked, he could legally be fired over his sexuality. Absurd, but true.
Let's go O's. Let's go Mets.
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Postby jnormy » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:52 pm

RugbyD wrote:Ozzie may be colorfully and inappropriately uncouth, but he is no slanderer.


Sort of like John Rocker. :-b
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Postby Zito is God » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:58 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Zito is God wrote:Slader - The public uttering of a false statement that harms the good reputation of another. The statement must be made to, or within the hearing of, persons other then the defamed party.


The legal definition of slander, and the one you just gave, are not one in the same. The definition you posted is a very broad, general definition of slander, but has nothing to do with the law.


Actually, I gave you the definition out of a political science dictionary so yes, it was the right one :).
Sean Tracey has my apologies, we all know Ozzie Guillen is an idiot. I'm rooting for you!
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Postby Zito is God » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:03 pm

RugbyD wrote:
Zito is God wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
Zito is God wrote:I love all these "free speech" jokers looking at themselves as martyrs and believe they are protecting the bill of rights.

Lets get one thing straight here, I am a extreme liberal, I believe in civil rights and liberties and everything else like freedom of speech or religion. What Ozzie is doing is also in our little law book, and it is called "slander".

Take this example: Lets say my dad owns Fox Networks, so I ask him to get me a free 15 minutes of airtime and I go on saying this: "(insert your real name here) is a m$%&*r f$%#*(g moron ladies and gentlemen of America. He is a retarded fag wh can't man up to his words, hes a sissy with little girl arms and he smells bad when he walks up and down the street, its very gross." And lets say I do this 3 times a week (about as much as Ozzie shoots off nowadays), are you honestly telling me you won't throw your martyr attitude for free speech in the trash and go crying to the cops for harrasment and slander?! Teah, thought so.

Either you don't know what slander means, or you think being gay is bad/wrong. Which is it?


Are you blind or just responding to another post? Where in the world did I indicate I think being gay is wrong?

Now, as for slander:

Slader - The public uttering of a false statement that harms the good reputation of another. The statement must be made to, or within the hearing of, persons other then the defamed party.

I think you don't know what slander means my friend. Calling someone a fag on national TV is most certainly slander, if not harrasment.

lets use the working definition from legaldictionary.com:

oral defamation, in which someone tells one or more persons an untruth about another which untruth will harm the reputation of the person defamed.

For Ozzie's statements to be slanderous, they have to cause harm to the reputation of JM (hurt feelings don't count). All of this, by the way, assumes that Ozzie was specifically claiming that JM enjoys relations with men. If there is nothing wrong with being gay, then there is no harm to the reputation of JM, and therefore no slander. If you think this was slander, then by default you must think that there is something wrong with being gay.

Another way to look at it is if Ozzie did not intend to accuse JM of homosexual relations, but rather was using the word in a commonly colloquial and general pejorative sense similar to how someone would use 'douchebag'. JM is not harmed b/c someone called him a douchebag or similar equivalent, therefore no slander.

Ozzie may be colorfully and inappropriately uncouth, but he is no slanderer.

you seem to confuse statements that are merely offensive with ones that are truly slanderous.


I'd have to disagree, I believe that while Ozzie did not mean the term in a homosexual matter, people have percieved it as saying that being gay somehow makes you "lesser" then heterosexuals.

My problem in terms of slander has nothing to do with whether JM was accused of being gay or not, it has to do with public attacksw against an individual.

I will just ask you to consider two things:

1st, my scenario from a page back, still didn't get an answer on that one.

2nd, if what ozzie did was good and legal and politically correct, then I'll run for President and tell the world on national television that I believe that my opponent is a child molestor, after all, molestor, fag, they are all just names right? Will I get away with it? Of course not, but thats no different then what Ozzie did.
Sean Tracey has my apologies, we all know Ozzie Guillen is an idiot. I'm rooting for you!
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Postby markj11 » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:12 pm

Zito is God wrote:If you can honestly tell me that the scenario I proposed, where you are ridiculed on national television would not hurt you at all, well, then I'd call you a liar my friend.


Zito, would it be considered slander if someone called you a liar on the internet were billions of people could see it if you really are not liar.
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