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Berkman comments on steroids and pitching

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Postby wrveres » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:20 am

Its pretty close to a 60 (pitchers)/ 40 (batters) split for steriods use ..


Of course you'll never hear the sheep admit it ..


baaaah
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Postby tgalv » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:21 am

George_Foreman wrote:With Perez it's his location. He's been walking guys left and right for more than a year now.


what the hell are you talking about? do you even watch the games or anything? an 88 mph fastball isn't quite as effective as 98.
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Postby bleach168 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:44 am

Its pretty close to a 60 (pitchers)/ 40 (batters) split for steriods use ..


And this is proven where?
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Postby wrveres » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:15 am

bleach168 wrote:
Its pretty close to a 60 (pitchers)/ 40 (batters) split for steriods use ..


And this is proven where?


I realize that you believe that anything that flows from my keyboard is bullchit, so to be honest I don't even know why I bother replying to you ..


but Here Image
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Postby josebach » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:48 am

wrveres wrote:Its pretty close to a 60 (pitchers)/ 40 (batters) split for steriods use ..


Of course you'll never hear the sheep admit it ..


baaaah


Man, are you obnoxious.

One thing I don't understand. You keep calling everybody "sheep", yet YOU were the one that blindly believed Barry was telling the truth all these years without a shred of evidence indicating he was innocent. If THAT's not a sheep, I don't know what is.

wrveres wrote:baaaah


And you call everybody else "hypocrites"? :-?
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Postby Krunk City King$ » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:58 am

bleach168 wrote:
Its pretty close to a 60 (pitchers)/ 40 (batters) split for steriods use ..


And this is proven where?


I found this paragraph very interesting...

"If you really look carefully at the James Neyer book of pitchers, it is really easy to see that many many more pitchers are throwing in the mid to upper 90s today than at any other time before in the history of major league baseball. The number of pitchers throwing at 90 plus mph is far greater today compared with the 20s, 30s, 40s, or even the 60s, by comparison, than the number of home runs is greater than the 60s or 30s. At least with offense, you can say that the 90s are similar to the 50s and the 20s and the 1890s.

But there is no era in baseball history where so many pitchers have thrown so fast for so long and so many young pitchers have had this ability."
8-o

*********************

On another note, MLB is also busting a high number and possibly disproportionate amount of players of latin decent in MLB when it comes to steriod related issues. David Ortiz has been trying to bring awareness to the situation at the start of last season.

from the article,
Steroids Rules Tripping Up Latin Players
By RONALD BLUM, AP Sports Writer


"Three of the five players suspended under the big league policy were born outside the United States: Minnesota reliever Juan Rincon (Venezuela), Tampa Bay outfielder Alex Sanchez (Cuba) and Texas pitcher Agustin Montero (Dominican Republic).


At the minor league level, 24 of the 47 players suspended this year (51.1 percent) were born in Latin America, with 11 from Venezuela, 10 from the Dominican Republic, two from Mexico and one from Puerto Rico.


According to statistics compiled by the commissioner's office, 23.5 percent of the 829 major league players on opening-day rosters and disabled lists were born in Cuba, the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Mexico, or Venezuela. While no minor league statistics are available for this year, as of April 2004 the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, Mexico and Venezuela accounted for 40.4 percent of the 6,117 players signed to minor league contracts.


"I talked to the union and said that you have to have a meeting for the Latin players in our language," said Boston Red Sox slugger David Ortiz, who is Dominican. "You could have the meeting over the winter in the Dominican and have a lunch or dinner and tell them everything. My English isn't the best, but I read and write and understand what people say to me and I sometimes have trouble with this stuff, so you can imagine what it is like for the guys who don't understand English as well."


Complicating the matter is that many substances now banned under baseball's program because they are controlled substances in the United States are obtainable over the counter in pharmacies in players' homelands.


They can walk into a drug store at home during the offseason, pop pills until they head to Florida and Arizona in February and then turn up positive at spring training.


"Are there people buying substances in countries where the substances are legal? Yes," said Gene Orza, chief operating officer of the Major League Baseball Players' Association. "It's hard. It's one of the great problems in this.""

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... 703D65.DTL


****************




back to pitching, another old article on the subject......just for the heck of it......still an interesting read in hindsight....


Steroid-Assisted Fastballs? Pitchers Face New Spotlight
May 18, 2005
By JERE LONGMAN

Baseball's conventional wisdom holds that anabolic steroids are used by beefy sluggers and avoided by pitchers, who rely on flexibility and long, lean muscles instead of constricting bulk.

But this stereotype has been challenged by the latest regimen of steroid testing.

Two of the five players suspended from major league rosters for steroid offenses this spring were pitchers, as were 29 of the 63 players who failed more stringent testing in the minor leagues.

This revealing portrait - 31 of 68 suspended players being pitchers - has emerged because baseball has begun suspending and naming major leaguers for first-time steroid violations and has begun publicizing the names of transgressors in the minor leagues, where suspensions have been levied since 2002.

"I think at the heart of the issue is, everybody is always seeking a competitive edge," said Tony La Russa, manager of the St. Louis Cardinals. "It just doesn't mean pitchers or hitters. If that gives you an edge, then everybody is going to seek to do it. So it probably shouldn't surprise anybody."

Although the public may equate steroid use with muscle-bound athletes, that notion has long been dispelled outside baseball. Steroids have appeared in numerous sports in which flexibility and lean muscle mass are at a premium, from swimming to cycling to gymnastics to distance running.

According to players, managers, coaches and baseball executives, pitchers may be using steroids for several reasons: to increase power in hopes of improving velocity; to maintain strength over a long, grueling season; and to recover more quickly between starts or relief appearances.

"As a whole, we've probably been surprised by the number of pitchers that have been involved with it," the Mets left-hander Tom Glavine said of those who have been suspended this season.

"I think there was a perception it wouldn't do anything for pitchers," Glavine said. "I think we probably all realize we might have been wrong."

The revelations about pitchers challenge the long-held belief that throwing a baseball is a matter of proper mechanics and natural ability, and that no amount of weight lifting can add miles an hour to a fastball, Glavine said.

"Now with some of that other stuff and how it changes your body, I think we're probably all starting to realize that maybe it can change that aspect of it," Glavine said in reference to the speed of a pitch.

It is not clear how widespread the use of performance-enhancing drugs is among pitchers. Baseball does not test for human growth hormone, which is believed to be used extensively by athletes in various sports. Baseball also does not test major leaguers for amphetamines. In addition, Major League Baseball is not releasing what kind of steroids the suspended pitchers were using.

But what seems clear from trips to several ballparks last week is that widespread confusion and even denial persist about steroid use in what are still the infant stages of Major League Baseball's screening program.

Asked if he thought steroids were a significant problem among pitchers, Terry Francona, manager of the Boston Red Sox, said, "I don't feel comfortable giving an opinion on something where my opinion is going to be somewhat ignorant."

Compared with officials in Olympic sports like track and field, which has been testing for steroids since the late 1960's, many in baseball seem far behind the learning curve.

"I've never seen or heard of a pitcher that wanted to do that because it would add bulk, and that's the worst thing you can do as a pitcher," Ray Miller of the Baltimore Orioles, one of the game's most highly respected pitching coaches, said of steroids.

Others, in and out of baseball, disagree.

Dr. Charles Yesalis, a Penn State professor and steroids expert who testified before Congress in March, said in an interview that "given the competition to keep their jobs and the money involved, I can't believe that a significant percent of pitchers haven't tried this."

"But I don't know what a significant percent translates to," he said.

Bronson Arroyo, a right-handed pitcher for Boston, said: "I don't think it was out of the question for just as many pitchers as position players to be on it. Who wouldn't want to throw three or four miles harder if they could?"

Eric Byrnes, the Oakland Athletics' left fielder, said some players had suspicions about pitchers who threw 87 miles an hour one year and 95 the next, just as they had suspicions about hitters who hit 10 home runs one season and considerably more the next.

"Flip a coin, half pitchers, the other half position players," Byrnes said of steroid use. "It doesn't surprise me at all."

Jim Palmer, a Hall of Fame right-hander, said he played golf recently with an active pitcher who changed teams this year and who estimated that a number of big-league pitchers were using steroids. He declined to name the pitcher.

Earlier this month, Tom House, a pitching instructor and a former major league pitcher, told The San Francisco Chronicle that he used steroids "they wouldn't give to horses" and human growth hormone for a period during his professional career in the late 1960's and 1970's.

House described extensive use of amphetamines in baseball during that time, telling The Chronicle that he explained defeat away by saying, "We didn't get beat, we got out-milligrammed." !+)

Curt Young, the Oakland pitching coach, said he believed pitchers used steroids primarily to gain strength. "And if you are physically strong, you have a mental edge, and everybody is looking for that mental edge," he said.

Boston reliever Mike Timlin, who has pitched for six teams in a 15-year major league career, theorized that pitchers used steroids "more for recovery and longevity rather than just all-out strength."

"It's kind of blown out of proportion, even with hitters," Timlin said. "Hitters are not looking for all-out strength or size. What they're looking for is to have a regular amount of strength day in and day out. That's why they take it. That's why pitchers take it."

David Wells, the Boston left-hander and former Yankee, said he considered, but decided against, using growth hormone in an attempt to recover from back problems in 2001, when he pitched for the Chicago White Sox. Major League Baseball had no drug-testing policy at the time.

"It's a good thing I didn't do it," Wells said. "I got a trainer. He said we could probably do without it."

Mike Flanagan, a former Cy Young award winner with the Baltimore Orioles and now the team's vice president for baseball operations, said he believed the pitchers who were using steroids were primarily fringe players. But for all players, he said, recovery time is critical in a sport that plays 162 games in 177 days.

"That's why guys don't play until they're 50," said Flanagan, who is 53 and appears to be among the more well-informed executives on performance-enhancing drugs. "It's recovery time. I'd still be playing if we played twice a week. That's what the end of your career is. It's not that you can't do it. You just can't do it six out of seven days anymore."

Although steroids and growth hormone are believed by many to facilitate recovery, allowing athletes to train more frequently over longer periods with greater intensity, scientists said the process was not well understood.

"It's tough to get rats to bench press or throw a fastball," said Yesalis, the steroids expert.

One potential problem with steroids is they appear to repair muscle faster than ligaments and tendons, which could lead to an imbalance and increased mechanical stress on shoulders and elbows, said Dr. William J. Kraemer, a professor of kinesiology at the University of Connecticut, who researches how naturally occurring hormones repair tissue.

More sophisticated conditioning programs could reduce the temptation for pitchers to use steroids, he said, adding that while some baseball teams use the latest techniques of resistance training, others seem to cling to outdated tradition.

"Many coaches don't want to complicate their minds with knowledge," Kraemer said.

Ron Gardenhire, manager of the Minnesota Twins, said he was concerned that, in the rush to punish steroid users, baseball had not provided enough education about the effects of steroids and about what substances contained in various nutritional supplements were banned.

Gardenhire said last week that he had not been able to learn what steroid Twins reliever Juan Rincon had tested positive for. Rincon, who has completed his 10-day suspension, has said he never knowingly took a banned substance.

"I think probably what's happening more than anything with pitchers or whatever, it's the supplements," Gardenhire said. "I think there needs to be a little more education on what is and what isn't legal. Maybe they have, but it has not worked. If a lot of guys are getting busted for steroids right now, and they don't know what they're doing, we're in trouble."

The case of Rincon, a native of Venezuela, has highlighted a contentious issue regarding drug suspensions.

An analysis published earlier this month by The Associated Press showed that about half of the suspended baseball players this season were from Latin America. This has raised a debate about whether steroid use in Spanish-speaking countries is purposeful and the result of more easily obtainable steroids and unsavory trainers - who facilitate the desperation of young players trying to make it to the big leagues - or inadvertently the result of a language barrier.

Rob Manfred, Major League Baseball's executive vice president for labor relations, defended the testing-education program, saying it was thorough and extensive.

He said that lists of banned substances were available in English and in Spanish and that this spring, each minor leaguer was shown a DVD about prohibited substances and was given an 800 number to call for questions.

Still, Omar Minaya, the general manager of the Mets, said more education on steroids was necessary on a number of fronts.

"The myth that steroids are only for hitters, that hasn't been the case," he said. "It's not only about gaining strength. A lot of it has to do with recovery, not only for hitters, but also for pitchers. Other issues are involved that are complicated. Education is going to be huge going forward."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/18/sport ... yt&emc=rss
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Postby wrveres » Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:15 am

pretty sure I read those before, but solid reads none the less..

thanks for posting those .. ;-D
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Postby Madison » Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:19 am

bigh0rt wrote:
Gizmo wrote:Dickey's velocity was very low in his first / only start against Detroit. Must be steroids.


This man has a point. ;-7 :-D


I'm sure that had nothing to do with him throwing mostly knuckleballs. ;-7

Or the fact that he stinks. ;-7



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Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Re: Berkman comments on steroids and pitching

Postby The Jury » Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:22 pm

NikkiSixx wrote:
reynolds80 wrote:"You knew there was going to be a day of reckoning," Berkman said Wednesday while McTaggart and I chatted with him.

At first it seemed as though Berkman was joking, as usual. But he was somewhat serious, even pointing out that more pitchers than hitters have been suspended for using steroids.

"Everybody wants to talk about the hitters being juiced," he said. "Nobody even really thinks about the pitchers. Before they were throwing 95-mph, but now they're throwing 90. It's going to be a whole different feel."

http://blogs.chron.com/baseballblog/arc ... n_ste.html



Makes you wonder if guys like Oliver Perez were on steroids, he sucks right now and his velocity is way down.


I'm not sure about the season because I don't catch Pirates games often, but in the WBC Ollie was consistently hitting 92-94.
The odds of the AL MVP coming from the American League are looking pretty good.
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Postby bleach168 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:48 pm

wrveres wrote:
bleach168 wrote:
Its pretty close to a 60 (pitchers)/ 40 (batters) split for steriods use ..


And this is proven where?


I realize that you believe that anything that flows from my keyboard is bullchit, so to be honest I don't even know why I bother replying to you ..


but Here Image


Yup 54-50 is close to 60-40. ;-D

An important, but sadly hard to quantify factor is to what degree do steroids help pitchers and hitters. A lot of people perceive steroids to help hitters more than pitchers but who knows.
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