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BB51 Rankings: New Version: 2B/SS

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BB51 Rankings: New Version: 2B/SS

Postby BronXBombers51 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:27 pm

The middle infield version of my tiered rankings...

Second Basemen:
Tier 1:
-Chase Utley

Tier 2:
-Chone Figgins
-Alfonso Soriano
-Jeff Kent

Tier 3:
-Marcus Giles
-Jorge Cantu
-Rickie Weeks

Tier 4:
-Brian Roberts
-Felipe Lopez
-Robinson Cano

Tier 5:
-Mark Ellis
-Tadahito Iguchi
-Ryan Freel
-Mark Loretta
-Placido Polanco

Tier 6:
-Ronnie Belliard
-Craig Biggio
-Ian Kinsler
-Luis Castillo
-Ray Durham
-Mike Lowell
-Todd Walker
-Jose Vidro
-Bill Hall


Shortstops:
Tier 1:
-Michael Young
-Miguel Tejada

Tier 2:
-Derek Jeter
-Jimmy Rollins
-Jose Reyes

Tier 3:
-Jhonny Peralta
-Rafael Furcal

Tier 4:
-Edgar Renteria
-Felipe Lopez
-Julio Lugo

Tier 5:
-Bobby Crosby
-Nomar Garciaparra
-Clint Barmes

Tier 6:
-Khalil Greene
-Ian Kinsler
-Orlando Cabrera
-Mark Ellis
-Hanley Ramirez

Tier 7:
-David Eckstein
-Omar Vizquel
-Carlos Guillen
-J.J. Hardy
-B.J. Upton
-Bill Hall
-Juan Uribe
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Postby daullaz » Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:08 pm

2B

I'd like to see Polanco higher. He won't get you HRs or RBI, but he has an awesome average and he'll score a bunch of runs. That deserves to get him at least into Tier 4. Mark Ellis is another good average guy with a little bit more power than Polanco that i see in Tier 4. I might bump Cano down to Tier 5 for these two guys into Tier 4. Tad Iguchi might be good enough to move up a tier with that 20/20 potential.

SS

I'd have Reyes and Lopez in Tier 3 with Peralta and Furcal, though Furcal could possibly slide down to Tier 4. Barmes can be bumped down to the next tier. I'd like to see J.J. Hardy at least in Tier 6 just on potential alone. Bill Hall can slide out of Tier 7 without a place to play regularly.
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Postby Zito is God » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:27 pm

Wait, Weeks has a good month and he jumps in front of Cano who has been consistent pretty much the entire year and has a far superior lineup?
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Postby Cleveland Steamers » Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:55 pm

While Weeks may not deserve to be that high pre-season, I see him at least that high at the end of the year and I guess thats what its all about.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:17 pm

Zito is God wrote:Wait, Weeks has a good month and he jumps in front of Cano who has been consistent pretty much the entire year and has a far superior lineup?


Cano bats 9th; Weeks will bat second.

Cano can't steal anything. Weeks will steal 20+.

Weeks "inconsistency" was injury related and came after he clearly outperformend Cano in AAA last year.
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Postby Halo Homers » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:10 pm

These rankings look really solid.

The only guy who I see misplaced by 2 tiers or more is Carlos Gullien.

He's hit .300+ the last two years, will hit between 10-15 Hrs. Knee problem looks like it was minor, as he played winter ball this year.
I think he's tier 4 or 5 guy.

Jhonny Peralta is guy with most upside and risk. If you believe last year was a indicator of things to come, he is a tier 1 guy.

Todd Walker needs to be watched. If he gets the starting job on a regular basis for the Cubs, he moves up to tier 3 or 4.
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Postby Zito is God » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:14 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Zito is God wrote:Wait, Weeks has a good month and he jumps in front of Cano who has been consistent pretty much the entire year and has a far superior lineup?


Cano bats 9th; Weeks will bat second.

Cano can't steal anything. Weeks will steal 20+.

Weeks "inconsistency" was injury related and came after he clearly outperformend Cano in AAA last year.


I seriously want someone to give me a valid reason as to why batting 9th in the YANKEE LINEUP is so terrible. Usually batting ninth is a sin because of the horrid 7,8 hitters but with the type of lineup the Yankees are throwing I can't see batting ninth as a way to degrade Cano.

I could care less about what they did in the minors (as you pointed out, Weeks struggled as well), I care more about the type of things they showed me in the majors.

I'll trade SBs for more RBIs, Runs, HRs anyday buddy. The Brewer lineup is not the Yankees, or even close for that matter, Cano has more power and thus will be getting more RBIs, HRs and Runs. Weeks is in a young lineup that will carry a first baseman and a shortstop that are rookies just like him this year.

I am not saying Weeks is bad, I am saying that in a one year league I want to hear an arguement proving Weeks over Cano, can't see it...
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:46 pm

Zito is God wrote:I seriously want someone to give me a valid reason as to why batting 9th in the YANKEE LINEUP is so terrible. Usually batting ninth is a sin because of the horrid 7,8 hitters but with the type of lineup the Yankees are throwing I can't see batting ninth as a way to degrade Cano.

I could care less about what they did in the minors (as you pointed out, Weeks struggled as well), I care more about the type of things they showed me in the majors.

I'll trade SBs for more RBIs, Runs, HRs anyday buddy. The Brewer lineup is not the Yankees, or even close for that matter, Cano has more power and thus will be getting more RBIs, HRs and Runs. Weeks is in a young lineup that will carry a first baseman and a shortstop that are rookies just like him this year.

I am not saying Weeks is bad, I am saying that in a one year league I want to hear an arguement proving Weeks over Cano, can't see it...


You vastly overestimate the importance of team over batting order.

Last year the #9 hitter for the Yankees in all 162 games had 59 runs and 51 RBIs.

Last year, the #2 hitter for the Brewers had 99 runs and 58 RBIs.

Now, the performance of the teams and players will change those numbers each year, but there's just no way a #9 hitter can get as many opportunities to score runs as a #2 hitter. The two will be close in RBIs, because of the fact that pitchers wil give Weeks fewer opportunities to drive in runs, despite his higher position in the batting order.

So, what this means is that Weeks will trounce Cano in two categories, runs and SBs. The two will be close in homers and RBIs. And Cano will win BA by a significant margin.

Add it all up and it's a pretty clear win for Weeks.
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Postby Mustangs989 » Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:50 pm

Zito is God wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Zito is God wrote:Wait, Weeks has a good month and he jumps in front of Cano who has been consistent pretty much the entire year and has a far superior lineup?


Cano bats 9th; Weeks will bat second.

Cano can't steal anything. Weeks will steal 20+.

Weeks "inconsistency" was injury related and came after he clearly outperformend Cano in AAA last year.


I seriously want someone to give me a valid reason as to why batting 9th in the YANKEE LINEUP is so terrible. Usually batting ninth is a sin because of the horrid 7,8 hitters but with the type of lineup the Yankees are throwing I can't see batting ninth as a way to degrade Cano.

I could care less about what they did in the minors (as you pointed out, Weeks struggled as well), I care more about the type of things they showed me in the majors.

I'll trade SBs for more RBIs, Runs, HRs anyday buddy. The Brewer lineup is not the Yankees, or even close for that matter, Cano has more power and thus will be getting more RBIs, HRs and Runs. Weeks is in a young lineup that will carry a first baseman and a shortstop that are rookies just like him this year.

I am not saying Weeks is bad, I am saying that in a one year league I want to hear an arguement proving Weeks over Cano, can't see it...

I'm not sure where you are getting Cano has more power than Weeks. Cano had 14HR in 522 AB while Weeks had 13HR in 360AB. Also I think you're really undervaluing the value of the 20 extra SB Weeks will give you. Cano will likely beat Weeks in average, runs and RBI's will be hard to say as Cano is in a better lineup but bats 9th. Meanwhile Weeks will be batting 2nd in a decent lineup and has a better OBP.

Dismissing minor league stats is not a good idea, they are not perfectly accurate but they still give you a good idea of how good the player is when adjusted right. To dismiss minor league stats is just stupid. I'll take Weeks for this year, and the future.
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Postby Zito is God » Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:20 pm

Mustangs989 wrote:
Zito is God wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Zito is God wrote:Wait, Weeks has a good month and he jumps in front of Cano who has been consistent pretty much the entire year and has a far superior lineup?


Cano bats 9th; Weeks will bat second.

Cano can't steal anything. Weeks will steal 20+.

Weeks "inconsistency" was injury related and came after he clearly outperformend Cano in AAA last year.


I seriously want someone to give me a valid reason as to why batting 9th in the YANKEE LINEUP is so terrible. Usually batting ninth is a sin because of the horrid 7,8 hitters but with the type of lineup the Yankees are throwing I can't see batting ninth as a way to degrade Cano.

I could care less about what they did in the minors (as you pointed out, Weeks struggled as well), I care more about the type of things they showed me in the majors.

I'll trade SBs for more RBIs, Runs, HRs anyday buddy. The Brewer lineup is not the Yankees, or even close for that matter, Cano has more power and thus will be getting more RBIs, HRs and Runs. Weeks is in a young lineup that will carry a first baseman and a shortstop that are rookies just like him this year.

I am not saying Weeks is bad, I am saying that in a one year league I want to hear an arguement proving Weeks over Cano, can't see it...

I'm not sure where you are getting Cano has more power than Weeks. Cano had 14HR in 522 AB while Weeks had 13HR in 360AB. Also I think you're really undervaluing the value of the 20 extra SB Weeks will give you. Cano will likely beat Weeks in average, runs and RBI's will be hard to say as Cano is in a better lineup but bats 9th. Meanwhile Weeks will be batting 2nd in a decent lineup and has a better OBP.

Dismissing minor league stats is not a good idea, they are not perfectly accurate but they still give you a good idea of how good the player is when adjusted right. To dismiss minor league stats is just stupid. I'll take Weeks for this year, and the future.


I did not mean to come off as to portrait that minor league stats are not ever important. I mean that once a full season in the majors has been played I feel minor league stats are irrelevant. All the players people label "busts" are players that had great years in the minors and could not cut it in the majors. This is why I look at major league stats after a full season rather then keep coming back to their minor league stuff. You can call them busts or "Next years" but if they keep underproducing from the minor league systems they cannot be said to have relevant minor league stats.
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