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We should abolish the Wins stat.

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Postby DGroundhog » Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:58 am

I'm not trying to argue they are a true indicator of anything. It is a viable stat, and I think any league would suffer by eliminating it.

I have nothing against adding categories, as long as it is well thought out and balanced. I think if you add too many related categories, guys who steal but don't do much else can become obsolete. A guy like Bonds can be made a fantasy god if you use avg, walks, slg pct, HR's, and several other categories he dominates. The same can be said for some pitchers.

a well thought out 10 x 10 league, sure, that'd be a great challenge. A 25 x 25 league that just uses every stat available? I'm not sure I'd want to do that more than once.
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Postby Sticky Spice » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:47 am

LetsPlay2 wrote:The problem with lobbying for quality starts over wins as a more legit category is that some pitchers throw in pitcher friendly parks, others in hitter friendly parks. If a guy gets a win when he gives up 5 runs, obviously the other pitcher had some trouble as well (wind blowing out at Wrigley) and a win is a legit indicator of the pitching performance. If quality starts becomes the category, just grab every pitcher that faces the Dodgers.


I don't think I agree with this point for a couple reasons. What park a team plays in or what opponent/division they play to me is legitimate. That is something that you can study and research and make an educated decision about. Just as we already do with hitters. The bigger disagreement I have is that we will pay attention to what park a pitcher pitches in whether we are using W or QS.

It is impossible to remove luck from fantasy sports. But my opinion is that anything you can do to hold luck down and reward things like intelligence, creativity, good decision making, etc is something all fantasy leagues should strive for.

To me, QS is a far better gauge of true individual performance.

With wins, you have to worry about things like run support and defense which have absolutely nothing to do with your pitcher's individual performance. Now, I'm not saying those worries are completely eliminated with QS, but it's far less of an issue.

I saw someone post that 3 ER in 6 IP is a QS (which I did know) but 4 ER in 9 IP is NOT a QS (which I didn't know). Is this true? If so, I wouldn't be as eager to adopt QS over W. It doesn't make much sense considering it's a half run less ERA.
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Postby Sticky Spice » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:52 am

DGroundhog wrote:Replace wins with 'QS'...that is hilarious.

Wins are used for a very simple reason: It is the single most important stat. Pitcher X gave up fewer runs than pitcher Y. Runs determine victory.


I think you are confusing real baseball with fantasy baseball.

Kinda like women confuse love and sex. ;-)
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Postby Madison » Sat Jun 28, 2003 6:53 am

To get a Quality Start, a pitcher must pitch a minimum of 6 innings and give up no more than 3 earned runs.

So a pitcher can go: 6 innings, 9 hits, 6 walks, 3 er and get a QS.
But another line: 9 innings, 4 hits, 1 walk, 4 earned runs does NOT get a QS.

I think the definition of a Quality Start should be changed.
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Postby Sticky Spice » Sat Jun 28, 2003 7:19 am

DEFINITELY
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Postby jdh » Sat Jun 28, 2003 11:42 am

Yes, if they give up more than 3 runs, no matter how long they pitch, it's not a QS. This sometimes screws over pitchers that pitch extremely well (say 2 ER in 7 IP) and the manager decides to push them a little too far in the game and they give up a couple more runs in the next inning. Some managers like Tony LaRussa and Dusty Baker are infamous for pulling off such stunts.
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Postby T Long » Sat Jun 28, 2003 2:28 pm

taking away the wins catagory is just plan stupid , there wouldn't be much point to pitch the game then if u couldn't say u got a win. pitchers know if they pitched bad but got offensive help, they don't take pride in it , why change sumthing thats been for so many years?
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Postby bleach168 » Sat Jun 28, 2003 3:18 pm

Innings pitched per games started <---- the new stat to replace wins
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Postby jdh » Sat Jun 28, 2003 3:22 pm

Innings pitched/games started is also an idiotic stat. Strikeout pitchers wind up throwing far more pitches than finesse pitchers that generate groundouts, and often wind up not pitching as deep into games because of it. Also, how deep a pitcher goes into a game depends as much on the manager as on the pitcher. Idiot managers like Jimy Williams and managers that have good closers and setup men are more likely to pull their pitchers earlier. That makes IP/start no better than wins.
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Postby bleach168 » Sat Jun 28, 2003 3:31 pm

Strikeout pitchers wind up throwing far more pitches than finesse pitchers that generate groundouts, and often wind up not pitching as deep into games because of it.


Right, these pitchers who only survive 6 innings should be less valuable than ones that go 8-9 innings. An out is an out to a manager regardless of whehter it's a K or a ground out.

Also, how deep a pitcher goes into a game depends as much on the manager as on the pitcher.


Most of the time, managers go by pitch counts. If a starter is doing well and is under 100 pitches, the manager will keep sending them out there. Why would a manager want to burn his bullpen if he doesn't have to.

Is this new stat perfect? Of course not, there will be times that it will falsely punish a player who didn't deserve it or vice versa. However, I believe it is the stat with fewest flaws.
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