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We should abolish the Wins stat.

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Postby bleach168 » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:41 pm

Something like 6+ innings pitched while giving up 3 or less runs is a quality start.
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Postby Guest » Fri Jun 27, 2003 3:56 pm

bleach168 wrote:Something like 6+ innings pitched while giving up 3 or less runs is a quality start.


thats it
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Postby HOOTIE » Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:16 pm

bleach168 wrote:There was this one guy who had a 3.51 ERA and a 1.26 WHIP. Do you think those numbers are good? Do you think those numbers are good enough to win the Cy Young?

That's what Roger Clemens did in 2001. They gave the Cy Young to him because he had the best run support in the majors. Wow, he deserved it huh?



Roger wasnt the BEST choice that year, Mussina and Garcia pitched better, but Roger wasnt a horrible choice. If i recall, Roger was only 1 win share off Garcia and Mussina. Roger was 4th in run support, 6.58 runs per 9, clearly showing a better record then he should have had. Writers are in love with wins, and thats why Roger and Zito won. If i had a vote, Mussina in 01, and Pedro in 02. The ironic thing, is Roger wasnt the best pitcher on his team that year.

ERA+ in 01

Mussina 142
Garcia 138
Clemens 132
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Postby bleach168 » Fri Jun 27, 2003 4:22 pm

I bow down to you, Hootie.

Edit: Oh and where do you find ERA+ stats?
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Postby wrveres » Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:49 pm

HOOTIE wrote:
bleach168 wrote:ERA+ in 01

Mussina 142
Garcia 138
Clemens 132


where ya getting that from hootie?
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Postby LetsPlay2 » Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:27 pm

The problem with lobbying for quality starts over wins as a more legit category is that some pitchers throw in pitcher friendly parks, others in hitter friendly parks. If a guy gets a win when he gives up 5 runs, obviously the other pitcher had some trouble as well (wind blowing out at Wrigley) and a win is a legit indicator of the pitching performance. If quality starts becomes the category, just grab every pitcher that faces the Dodgers.

Every category has it's share of good luck or bad luck involved. Wins is a quirky category......but that's OK.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sat Jun 28, 2003 12:54 am

Edit: Oh and where do you find ERA+ stats?[/quote]


baseball-reference.com
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Postby DGroundhog » Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:17 am

Replace wins with 'QS'...that is hilarious.

Pitcher A pitches 6 innings, give up 3 runs for a 4.50 ERA in a losing effort and you call it quality. Pitcher B pitches 9 innings, gives up 4 runs for a 4.00 ERA and his team wins but he is not rewarded. Yeah, that fixes things.

BAA? How about those times when pitchers can't throw a strike. Let's say he walks a guy. The next batter tries to bunt the runner over, but fouls off a few bunts and strikes out. The pitcher can't throw another strike the rest of the inning and walks 6 in a row. His BAA is zero, and you want to give him a little reward for a job well done.

No stat is going to be an infallible measure of a pitcher. Wins are used for a very simple reason: It is the single most important stat. Pitcher X gave up fewer runs than pitcher Y. Runs determine victory.

Add QS as a category, add as many categories as you want, but don't be so absurd as to actually get rid of the win stat.
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Postby jdh » Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:20 am

BAA is a terrible category because it doesn't punish the wildness of catchers. If BAA was a key stat, you'd have a mediocre pitcher like Ischii having stud value because of his .208 BAA, even though his WHIP is atrocious since he walks as many guys as he gives up hits.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sat Jun 28, 2003 1:44 am

[quote=No stat is going to be an infallible measure of a pitcher. Wins are used for a very simple reason: It is the single most important stat. Pitcher X gave up fewer runs than pitcher Y. Runs determine victory.[/quote]

Wins are a teams most important stat. Rating pitchers by wins isnt that easy. Way too many variables that the sp doesnt control. Scouts in the minors place very little importance in a pitchers record. The best stat for future predictions is a pitchers so/w ratio.
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