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Marte for Crisp close.....

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Postby 1337_Dude » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:19 am

I can't see the logic behind this deal. I mean you're trading a very nice set-up guy along with one of the top prospects in the game for CoCo Crisp.

I dunno...just seems a little silly to me. On the bright side, as a Yankees fan this is an awesome trade. ;-D
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Postby Wozzyck » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:26 am

Another Blown Save wrote:Well, what else can he do?
He doesn't hit for average, he does have speed, nor does he have stellar defense


There's more to a player than his fantasy stats (i.e. BA, SB, HR). He has had excellent SLG percentages (with pretty huge power given his parks/age), he draws walks, has hit for an alright average, and has been voted the best defensive third baseman in every league he's played in the last four years (and scouting reports have him as a plus defender). And not only has he performed, but the scouts love him too.

Another Blown Save wrote:He doesn't hit for average, he does have speed, nor does he have stellar defense


You could be describing Adam Dunn, but I think I heard he's pretty good. :-[
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Postby Another Blown Save » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:52 am

Wozzyck wrote:There's more to a player than his fantasy stats (i.e. BA, SB, HR).
Yes, I'm quite aware
Wozzyck wrote:He has had excellent SLG percentages (with pretty huge power given his parks/age)
Yes, he does have the power, although I wouldn't call SLG of 506 "Excellent"
Wozzyck wrote:he draws walks
He also strikes out a lot.
Wozzyck wrote:has hit for a decent average
275 in AAA translates to about 250 in MLB
Wozzyck wrote:has been voted the best defensive third baseman in every league he's played in the last four years (and scouting reports have him as a plus defender).
Is that so? I never found his 15 Es in 109 games or the 3 Es in 17 games to be impressive.

Wozzyck wrote:Neither does Adam Dunn, but I hear he's pretty good. :-[

Dunn was hitting 329 w/ SLG of 676 in AAA when he was 22, so I would even compare Marte's bat with Dunn's bat.
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Postby The Cow » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:54 am

As a Tribe fan I do not want this deal to go through. Crisp is basically a Damon clone, some powere some speed good average, good def... I mean if this deal were Damon for Mota and Marte well the team dealing Damon is crazy.

Mota- Yeah this guy was good, but is he now?? Does he have arm problems?? Last year was awfully mediocre.

Marte- A top 5 prospect??? NO WAY!!! Maybe at one time somebody thought him a top 5 prospect, but I see a kid that hits about .270 in the minors with some pop, but .270?? In the majors he may be a .250 hitter oh boy. Last year in the bigs he hit a robust .140!!!!! Top 5 prospect thats a joke.

Crisp- Does it all, not as much power as you would like more of a leadoff or #2 hitter. But if the Sox need a CF well this guy can be an all-star. .310 20/20 RBIs and runs depends on the team.

The reason Crisp may be available is that he has spurned the Tribes contract offer.

If the Tribe deals Crisp for Arroyo or Clement well those are some awfully mediocre SPs. The Tribe did want Clement as a FA last year though.

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Postby Pedantic » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:08 am

The Cow wrote:Marte- A top 5 prospect??? NO WAY!!! Maybe at one time somebody thought him a top 5 prospect, but I see a kid that hits about .270 in the minors with some pop, but .270?? In the majors he may be a .250 hitter oh boy. Last year in the bigs he hit a robust .140!!!!! Top 5 prospect thats a joke.


You're probably right; Baseball America only ranked him ninth at the beginning of the season. ;-7 He may never win a batting title, but he won't hit .250. So, to summarize your remarks, you'd rather have a player with some speed and minimal pop than a quality third baseman who will be a perennial 30 HR threat?
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Postby The Cow » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:30 am

Pedantic wrote:
The Cow wrote:Marte- A top 5 prospect??? NO WAY!!! Maybe at one time somebody thought him a top 5 prospect, but I see a kid that hits about .270 in the minors with some pop, but .270?? In the majors he may be a .250 hitter oh boy. Last year in the bigs he hit a robust .140!!!!! Top 5 prospect thats a joke.


You're probably right; Baseball America only ranked him ninth at the beginning of the season. ;-7 He may never win a batting title, but he won't hit .250. So, to summarize your remarks, you'd rather have a player with some speed and minimal pop than a quality third baseman who will be a perennial 30 HR threat?


First off where Baseball America ranked him is irrelevant and I would bet his ranking has dropped for 2006.

I look at the deal like this:

Crisp=Damon
Matre(if he is as good as you guys say)= Glaus

Do I deal Damon for Glaus? NO.

The other factor is that Marte has proven nothing, to me Marte looks more like Joe "overrated" Crede than Troy Glaus. As for Crisp he has proven to be a high calibur player.

So would I deal Crisp for Crede? No!
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Postby Pedantic » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:40 am

The Cow wrote:
Pedantic wrote:
The Cow wrote:Marte- A top 5 prospect??? NO WAY!!! Maybe at one time somebody thought him a top 5 prospect, but I see a kid that hits about .270 in the minors with some pop, but .270?? In the majors he may be a .250 hitter oh boy. Last year in the bigs he hit a robust .140!!!!! Top 5 prospect thats a joke.


You're probably right; Baseball America only ranked him ninth at the beginning of the season. ;-7 He may never win a batting title, but he won't hit .250. So, to summarize your remarks, you'd rather have a player with some speed and minimal pop than a quality third baseman who will be a perennial 30 HR threat?


First off where Baseball America ranked him is irrelevant and I would bet his ranking has dropped for 2006.

I look at the deal like this:

Crisp=Damon
Matre(if he is as good as you guys say)= Glaus

Do I deal Damon for Glaus? NO.

The other factor is that Marte has proven nothing, to me Marte looks more like Joe "overrated" Crede than Troy Glaus. As for Crisp he has proven to be a high calibur player.

So would I deal Crisp for Crede? No!


Yeah, you're right, all another 20 HR season at age 21 could do is hurt his rank. ;-7 You are wildly overrating Crisp's value. He is a hitter in the leadoff mold who "boasts" a career OBP of .332. Even if he were as good as Damon, which he isn't, Damon's value is debatable, too. IMO, Marte will be closer to Eric Chavez, only with more power (defense aside). I know it's very hard for you, but every once in a while, it helps to think outside of the "Tribe-homer" box.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:29 am

Another Blown Save wrote:
Wozzyck wrote:There's more to a player than his fantasy stats (i.e. BA, SB, HR).
Yes, I'm quite aware
Wozzyck wrote:He has had excellent SLG percentages (with pretty huge power given his parks/age)
Yes, he does have the power, although I wouldn't call SLG of 506 "Excellent"
Wozzyck wrote:he draws walks
He also strikes out a lot.
Wozzyck wrote:has hit for a decent average
275 in AAA translates to about 250 in MLB
Wozzyck wrote:has been voted the best defensive third baseman in every league he's played in the last four years (and scouting reports have him as a plus defender).
Is that so? I never found his 15 Es in 109 games or the 3 Es in 17 games to be impressive.

Wozzyck wrote:Neither does Adam Dunn, but I hear he's pretty good. :-[

Dunn was hitting 329 w/ SLG of 676 in AAA when he was 22, so I would even compare Marte's bat with Dunn's bat.



Where to start? People need to learn a little bit about considering age--level of play---park when they judge prospects. If a 26 year old slugs .500 in the AAA PCL, it's nothing to get excited about. He's got 2-3 years of experience on most other guys in the league and the league's full of hitter's parks.

Slugging over .500 as a 21 year old in a AAA league that's all pitching parks is outstanding. That's what Marte did. Playing mostly against guys 2-4 years older, he kicked butt.

Strikeouts are no worse than any other out, so what matters is understanding what they mean. If a guy has a low average, low BB, and high Ks, he's clueless at the plate. He's impatient, swings at everything, and can't even make good contact with what he swings at.

That's not Marte. He's got a good average, high walks, and moderately high Ks. In fact, last year, he moved up a level increased his BB and reduced his Ks. He's a young kid who shows patience. That's a GOOD thing.

.275 translates more like .260 according to BaseballProspectus. Being able to hit .260 against major league pitchers as a 21 year old is very good. That projects to a guy that through his prime years will hit .275 to .290. Marte will hit for an average to above average BA.

Yeah, errors are a great way to measure defense
;-7

Dunn slugged that in a hitter's park, while Marte hit his in a pitcher's park, so the comparison is closer than it appears. But, Marte is no Dunn as a slugger. That doesn'tmean he's not a good player, though. But, I am currious. How come Marte's strikeouts matter, but Dunn's don't?
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Postby Transmogrifier » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:52 am

This deal is not going to happen. The Sox aren't that stupid. Sorry.
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Postby Wozzyck » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:56 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:Where to start? People need to learn a little bit about considering age--level of play---park when they judge prospects. If a 26 year old slugs .500 in the AAA PCL, it's nothing to get excited about. He's got 2-3 years of experience on most other guys in the league and the league's full of hitter's parks.

Slugging over .500 as a 21 year old in a AAA league that's all pitching parks is outstanding. That's what Marte did. Playing mostly against guys 2-4 years older, he kicked butt.

Strikeouts are no worse than any other out, so what matters is understanding what they mean. If a guy has a low average, low BB, and high Ks, he's clueless at the plate. He's impatient, swings at everything, and can't even make good contact with what he swings at.

That's not Marte. He's got a good average, high walks, and moderately high Ks. In fact, last year, he moved up a level increased his BB and reduced his Ks. He's a young kid who shows patience. That's a GOOD thing.

.275 translates more like .260 according to BaseballProspectus. Being able to hit .260 against major league pitchers as a 21 year old is very good. That projects to a guy that through his prime years will hit .275 to .290. Marte will hit for an average to above average BA.

Yeah, errors are a great way to measure defense
;-7

Dunn slugged that in a hitter's park, while Marte hit his in a pitcher's park, so the comparison is closer than it appears. But, Marte is no Dunn as a slugger. That doesn'tmean he's not a good player, though. But, I am currious. How come Marte's strikeouts matter, but Dunn's don't?


Well said, GotowarMissAgnes. Just to clarify though in my previous post, I wasn't likening Marte to Dunn as players. I was simply pointing out that in dismissing a player because you don't believe he hits for AVG, has good speed, or plays stellar defense, you're also dismissing one of the most valuable players in the game.

Another Blown Save wrote:Is that so? I never found his 15 Es in 109 games or the 3 Es in 17 games to be impressive.


And I'd like to emphasize the naivete of presenting modest error totals of a minor league infielder as any disproof/proof of his defensive ability.
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