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Are the Rangers stupid?

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Postby Madison » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:18 pm

wrveres wrote:
Madison wrote:
wrveres wrote:Mad any chance of you having a Tivo go on special soon? ;-7


Well I've got an extra grill, and know a guy who's got an extra Tivo. What are you offering for the Tivo I can get?



:-b


Chan Ho Park? ;-7


Meh, nevermind. Not interested. You can keep his sorry tail.

:-b

Phatferd wrote:I'm telling you, if they held onto Soriano for 2-3 months they could get more. If they waited until around the All-Star break for a team who really needed to add some pop, they would have overpaid for a guy like Soriano.

They probably could have gotten some teams number 1 or 2 pitching prospect. I have zero doubt in my mind.


Possibly. It is possible that the Rangers could have landed a solid pitching prospect for Soriano as the trade deadline neared, but what exactly is the point of doing that? We'd still be out the money for the first part of the season (and probably the majority of the contract in order to move him) and all we would get is a prospect?

Right now we're in a spot to get major league help. That's what we need. Not another prospect. We need someone to take the mound right now and hold an era around 4-4.25. We're in a spot to do that with all our extra hitting right now.

Not to mention the fact that the Rangers want to be competitive this season. We're not trying to wait for whatever prospect we get to be ready, now's the time to strike. The division isn't that tough. Seattle still stinks (but will do better than last year I belive), Oakland isn't a big threat (Loaiza hinders them too :-b ), which only leaves the Angels. The Angels will be tough, and are currently the frontrunners to win the division again, but if they stumble, the division is open if the Rangers can simply get 5 starters to hold a reasonable era. With our hitting, we're not talking superstars with sub 3 era's. Just maintain a 4.00-4.25 era and we will win games. If Oakland can overcome Loaiza stinking, they will be tough too, but at least we'd have a chance. Holding Soriano for a possible trade as the deadline draws near, only hurts our chances for this season. Moving him now to get the pieces we need to get some reasonable pitching was the right move.
Last edited by Madison on Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby slomo007 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:30 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
slomo007 wrote:
OhMrScottyTrav06 wrote:Well when you turn Alex Rodriguez into Brad Wilkerson and Termel Sledge... are you really going to expect much them to make smart moves?


The signing of A-Rod was the only mistake the Rangers made. Trading him for what turned out to be Wilkerson and Sledge is a positive, IMO. Not all trade value can be witnessed ON the field.


That wasn't the mistake they made. The mistakes they made were:

Darren Oliver: 3 years, $12 million; ERA: 7.42, 6.02, gone
Doug Davis: waived, picked up by Milwaukee
Rick Helling: 1 year, $4.5 million; ERA:5.17
Dave Burba: 1 year, $2 million; 111 IP, 5.42 ERA
Todd Van Poppel: 2 years, $4.5 million; 85 IP ERA of 5.45 and 8.53
John Rocker: 1 year, $2.5 million; 24 IP, ERA of 6.66
UUU: 1 year, $4.5 million; 38 IP and traded for dreck
And, of course,

Chan Ho Park: 4 years, $48.8 million; IP: 145, 29, 95, 109; ERA: 5.75, 7.58, 5.46, 5.66

THOSE were the mistakes.


And this adds what to the discussion?

Aren't we talking about A-Rod/Soriano here?

Every team has its own list of mistakes, Texas is no different.
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:01 pm

Madison wrote:
wrveres wrote:
Madison wrote:
wrveres wrote:Mad any chance of you having a Tivo go on special soon? ;-7


Well I've got an extra grill, and know a guy who's got an extra Tivo. What are you offering for the Tivo I can get?



:-b


Chan Ho Park? ;-7


Meh, nevermind. Not interested. You can keep his sorry tail.

:-b

Phatferd wrote:I'm telling you, if they held onto Soriano for 2-3 months they could get more. If they waited until around the All-Star break for a team who really needed to add some pop, they would have overpaid for a guy like Soriano.

They probably could have gotten some teams number 1 or 2 pitching prospect. I have zero doubt in my mind.


Possibly. It is possible that the Rangers could have landed a solid pitching prospect for Soriano as the trade deadline neared, but what exactly is the point of doing that? We'd still be out the money for the first part of the season (and probably the majority of the contract in order to move him) and all we would get is a prospect?

Right now we're in a spot to get major league help. That's what we need. Not another prospect. We need someone to take the mound right now and hold an era around 4-4.25. We're in a spot to do that with all our extra hitting right now.

Not to mention the fact that the Rangers want to be competitive this season. We're not trying to wait for whatever prospect we get to be ready, now's the time to strike. The division isn't that tough. Seattle still stinks (but will do better than last year I belive), Oakland isn't a big threat (Loaiza hinders them too :-b ), which only leaves the Angels. The Angels will be tough, and are currently the frontrunners to win the division again, but if they stumble, the division is open if the Rangers can simply get 5 starters to hold a reasonable era. With our hitting, we're not talking superstars with sub 3 era's. Just maintain a 4.00-4.25 era and we will win games. If Oakland can overcome Loaiza stinking, they will be tough too, but at least we'd have a chance. Holding Soriano for a possible trade as the deadline draws near, only hurts our chances for this season. Moving him now to get the pieces we need to get some reasonable pitching was the right move.


You just said it yourself. You need pitching. This trade did not get you a single arm. You lose production between Wilkerson and Soriano. Wilkerson may be a solid player (I agree), but he is not Soriano. You are still short at least 2 arms on that team.

You lost Kenny Rogers, so you are already in a hole. I see no reason why you would not even take a pitcher with Soriano. Mench or Nix won't land you a better pitcher than Soriano would. They will probably only land you a prospect too. Soriano would have gotten at least a teams top prospect or number 2-3, if not a number 1.
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Postby thedude » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:16 pm

Phatferd wrote:You just said it yourself. You need pitching. This trade did not get you a single arm. You lose production between Wilkerson and Soriano. Wilkerson may be a solid player (I agree), but he is not Soriano. You are still short at least 2 arms on that team.

You lost Kenny Rogers, so you are already in a hole. I see no reason why you would not even take a pitcher with Soriano. Mench or Nix won't land you a better pitcher than Soriano would. They will probably only land you a prospect too. Soriano would have gotten at least a teams top prospect or number 2-3, if not a number 1.



The Rangers have already gotten more calls for Wilkerson and Sledge than they ever did for Soriano. It will be easier to turn one or both into pitchers than to trade soriano for a good pitcher most GMs are smart (but apprently not Jim Bowden) they foresaw the potenial problem of trading for Soriano (the problem the Nats are having right now with him). By getting cheap good outfielders, the Rangers improve their chances of getting pitching.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:18 pm

slomo007 wrote:And this adds what to the discussion?

Aren't we talking about A-Rod/Soriano here?

Every team has its own list of mistakes, Texas is no different.


Are you really this dense or just trying to pick a fight?
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:23 pm

thedude wrote:
Phatferd wrote:You just said it yourself. You need pitching. This trade did not get you a single arm. You lose production between Wilkerson and Soriano. Wilkerson may be a solid player (I agree), but he is not Soriano. You are still short at least 2 arms on that team.

You lost Kenny Rogers, so you are already in a hole. I see no reason why you would not even take a pitcher with Soriano. Mench or Nix won't land you a better pitcher than Soriano would. They will probably only land you a prospect too. Soriano would have gotten at least a teams top prospect or number 2-3, if not a number 1.



The Rangers have already gotten more calls for Wilkerson and Sledge than they ever did for Soriano. It will be easier to turn one or both into pitchers than to trade soriano for a good pitcher most GMs are smart (but apprently not Jim Bowden) they foresaw the potenial problem of trading for Soriano (the problem the Nats are having right now with him). By getting cheap good outfielders, the Rangers improve their chances of getting pitching.


If this is true, then I will take back everything I said. I don't think they have plans to trade Wilkerson. If they trade anyone it will be Sledge, but he will not get you an arm that will really help this team.

The only players on the big league roster they could swing for a top pitcher is Young, Tex, and Blalock (Soriano was the other) and none of these guys are going anywhere, except maybe Blalock. I don't see them trading Blalock now since they lost Soriano's bat. If they lose Blalock too (even though he wasn't as productive last year) their offense is not better than the Angel's and their pitching is probably battling Seattle as the worst staff in the AL West. It won't get it done.
Last edited by Phatferd on Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:28 pm

RocketsDWM wrote:But who knows if teams were offering solid pitching for Soriano. Madison said it before, Soriano was not that great of a trading chip - he is about to get 10 million. As well, why should they take themselves out of the playoff picture even before the season begins? Your banking on the fact that they will not be in the race by the all-star break (giving up Soriano for a prospect? - how would that help them this year). Also, who knows how that prospect will pan out? I would rather have proven, solid major league talent ready to help from the beginning of the season. Would it have been nice if they received some pitching, no doubt. That is their weakness but who was about to give up good solid pitching for an arbritration eligible player?


You are making my point.

Teams who want short term help for a playoff push will sell the farm for a player with the skills of Soriano at the break!

My second point was even if all they got was a pitching prospect (even though I feel they couold have gotten at the very least a productive number 2 type guy) it would be better than another 2 outfielders.

Their offense still is not improved for this year. Their pitching is sure as hell not, either. They might as well have taken a prospect and set their rotation up a couple years down the line. They have young hitters locked up to build around, why not as a 2nd option take a young pitcher to go with their other top pitching prospect (name escapes me, was involved in the Beckett talks in exchange for Blalock) I think Denks or something was his name.
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Postby slomo007 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:36 pm

I actually think Wilkerson is better offensively than Soriano. Especially considering the Rangers need of someone to get on base and not strikeout.
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Postby slomo007 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:37 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
slomo007 wrote:And this adds what to the discussion?

Aren't we talking about A-Rod/Soriano here?

Every team has its own list of mistakes, Texas is no different.


Are you really this dense or just trying to pick a fight?


Well, I guess if you want to bring up past mistakes for no apparent reason:

In December 1998, the Orioles signed Albert Belle to a $65 million, five year contract, which averages to be $13 million per year.

However, $3 million of Belle's yearly salary is deferred without interest until after the contract expires (2005).

So, in other words, as of this point they owe Belle $15M (3Mx5 years).


I think I'll stop there and not go any further, we need time to let this sink in.
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