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Postby Tukka » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:46 am

teddy ballgame wrote:I went and watched from where he blew it up until the end and I have no idea how that theory makes sense. First of all, he apologizes to Jack because he just planted the C4. Why would he apologize if he didn't do anything?

Maybe because he has no intention of letting Jack leave the island even though he didn't blow up the sub? To Locke, the sub is more useful as a means of transportation around the islands should the need arise, or as a bargaining chip. It's also possible he just said sorry for the benefit of the Hostiles present, to make the ruse a bit more convincing.
Yeah, the explosion looked like it came from the middle of the dock but that's nitpicking the special effects.

Agreed that the location of the blast is not iron-clad evidence, but it does corroborate the theory.
Then afterwards Locke tells Ben he can stop acting like he's disappointed, and Ben explains why he wanted the sub blown up.

Exactly! Locke realized that by blowing up the sub, he was doing exactly what Ben wanted. Now why would he play right into Ben's hands like that? Possibly Locke's motives were exactly what Ben assumed they were when he used his reverse psychology "please don't blow up our sub!" bit, and Locke is just paranoid about someone finding the island, deciding that helping Ben in this manner was just a necessary evil. Or maybe, despite Alex's warning and his own knowledge of Ben's cleverness, Locke didn't realize that he was being manipulated until after the sub was destroyed.

I don't buy that, though. Locke seems a little too sly when Alex suggests he's being manipulated, so I think he knew what was going on. Knowing that he would be strengthening Ben's position by blowing the sub, (and having personal disdain for Ben and the other Hostiles) he would look for a 3rd option if one was available. Moving the sub and faking its destruction would be just such an option. In my mind, the only question is, would Locke have had time to enact such a plan (can't really tell from the episode, we don't know exactly how much time elapsed), and did he have the skills necessary to pilot the sub to another area (if so, he could pretty easily destroy the sub at a later date without C4 by submerging it with a hatch open, one would think.) Edit: Neither Ben or his previous employers (the box company) has any record of Locke having military experience, but he seems to be a man of strange talents (like building trebuchets).
I don't see how this theory could have started.

This is Lost, curve balls like this aren't entirely uncommon. Not long ago we thought Locke inadvertently blew up the Flame, and this is what he leads both his friends and his enemy (and the viewers) to believe. He fooled everyone. We know Locke's been conned before, but I think he is done playing the sucker.

I could be wrong, but I feel fairly confident about this one. The biggest problem I see with it is that they will quickly discover the sub wasn't destroyed if they bother to check in daylight, if the water is reasonably clear and not too deep. Still, there's a good chance they might not bother, at least not right away.
Last edited by Tukka on Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby slomo007 » Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:51 am

I think you guys are failing to realize that Locke is a moron. :-/
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Postby teddy ballgame » Tue Mar 27, 2007 10:21 am

Tukka wrote:
Then afterwards Locke tells Ben he can stop acting like he's disappointed, and Ben explains why he wanted the sub blown up.

Exactly! Locke realized that by blowing up the sub, he was doing exactly what Ben wanted. Now why would he play right into Ben's hands like that? Possibly Locke's motives were exactly what Ben assumed they were when he used his reverse psychology "please don't blow up our sub!" bit, and Locke is just paranoid about someone finding the island, deciding that helping Ben in this manner was just a necessary evil. Or maybe, despite Alex's warning and his own knowledge of Ben's cleverness, Locke didn't realize that he was being manipulated until after the sub was destroyed.

I don't know, I still don't see what room there is for a theory like this. Locke knew Ben wanted him to blow up the sub. He blew it up anyways because it was important to him, not because Ben wanted him to. Ben goes to Locke afterwards and Locke tells him that he knows Ben wanted him to do it. Ben explains his reasoning as to why he wanted the sub blown up. Ben explains how Locke showing up wanting to do that saved Ben in the situation.

That combined with Locke going on the sub with the C4, coming back out and apologizing to Jack because of what he's done leaves no room in my mind that anyone else but Locke blew it up.

Tukka wrote:To Locke, the sub is more useful as a means of transportation around the islands should the need arise, or as a bargaining chip. It's also possible he just said sorry for the benefit of the Hostiles present, to make the ruse a bit more convincing.

I thought it was pretty clear Locke wanted to blow up the sub, not use it for transportation or as a bargaining chip. He kept the C4 and immediately asked for the sub when he got to Ben, despite not knowing how to drive it (as Ben pointed out). I also don't get why he would apologize if he didn't do anything. If he didn't plant the C4 how would he even know there was something to apologize for? If he didn't plant the explosive himself I don't think he would be walking away so casually. Just doesn't make sense to me.
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Postby Tukka » Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:19 pm

I thought it was pretty clear Locke wanted to blow up the sub, not use it for transportation or as a bargaining chip. He kept the C4 and immediately asked for the sub when he got to Ben, despite not knowing how to drive it (as Ben pointed out).

This is all what Ben assumes to be true -- note that Locke doesn't announce his intentions. If Locke is trying to con Ben he wouldn't have said or done anything to make Ben second-guess his assumptions, he would just go on letting Ben think he was being clever. The irony with this theory would be that what Alex says Ben has done to Locke (made Locke think that blowing the sub was Locke's idea), Locke has actually done to Ben -- making Ben think he is going to blow the sub, thus having Ben put him in a perfect position to blow the sub -- but Locke pulls a switch and hides the sub instead -- a classic con, which is what the episode is subtly about (so deeply involving Locke's dad -- the real Sawyer, a con artist, as it does), it's about a con. It's not a "con" if Locke knows he's being taken advantage of, so the question is, who is being conned? If not Locke, it must be Ben.
I also don't get why he would apologize if he didn't do anything. If he didn't plant the C4 how would he even know there was something to apologize for? If he didn't plant the explosive himself I don't think he would be walking away so casually. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Locke would have still planted the charge, he would have just done it on the dock rather than the sub. He knew about the deal Jack made with Ben. As I've already pointed out, he would apologize to Jack if he has no intention of letting Jack leave and instead using the sub for his own purposes. He feels bad about Jack not getting off the island but he feels his own agenda supersedes Jack's (this is true whether he actually blew the sub or not).
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Postby teddy ballgame » Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:01 pm

Tukka wrote:Locke would have still planted the charge, he would have just done it on the dock rather than the sub. He knew about the deal Jack made with Ben. As I've already pointed out, he would apologize to Jack if he has no intention of letting Jack leave and instead using the sub for his own purposes. He feels bad about Jack not getting off the island but he feels his own agenda supersedes Jack's (this is true whether he actually blew the sub or not).

Planting the charge on the dock? What would that achieve? It would still damage the sub so if the theory is that he did that to make it look like it was the sub but wasn't, that wouldn't make sense either. Not to mention I don't see any motive for why he would pretend to blow it up. What good would come of that? The way the scene played out with the apology leaves no room in my mind for something other than what I saw. This theory still seems bogus to me, and none of the arguments for it make sense in my mind, but I guess only time will tell.
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Postby Tukka » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:05 pm

OK, I'll retract my theory. ;) Someone showed me a picture that shows the sub just prior to the explosion. I didn't see it on the viewings of that scene that I watched before. So that pretty much kills the theory, but I'll maintain that it wasn't completely ludicrous. ;)
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Postby slomo007 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:38 pm

Tukka wrote:OK, I'll retract my theory. ;) Someone showed me a picture that shows the sub just prior to the explosion. I didn't see it on the viewings of that scene that I watched before. So that pretty much kills the theory, but I'll maintain that it wasn't completely ludicrous. ;)


So you're admitting Locke is a moron. ;-D
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Postby Tukka » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:42 pm

As long as I don't have to admit that I'm a moron. Sorry, John!
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Postby Yoda » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:08 pm

slomo007 wrote:
Tukka wrote:OK, I'll retract my theory. ;) Someone showed me a picture that shows the sub just prior to the explosion. I didn't see it on the viewings of that scene that I watched before. So that pretty much kills the theory, but I'll maintain that it wasn't completely ludicrous. ;)


So you're admitting Locke is a moron. ;-D


He is a moron and very misguided. He seems to be the ideal tragic figure. Something big will happen with him.
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Postby 5 » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:21 pm

slomo007 wrote:I think you guys are failing to realize that Locke is a moron. :-/


He's Gilligan
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