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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:40 pm
by psflipper
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:44 pm
by Rirruto
psflipper wrote:
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.

No, but I think he might say that they are better starting pitchers than Rivera.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:50 pm
by vapormike
Rirruto wrote:
psflipper wrote:
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.

No, but I think he might say that they are better starting pitchers than Rivera.


Well that's kind of like saying Pudge Rodriguez is a better catcher than A-Rod.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:52 pm
by Rirruto
vapormike wrote:
Rirruto wrote:
psflipper wrote:
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.

No, but I think he might say that they are better starting pitchers than Rivera.


Well that's kind of like saying Pudge Rodriguez is a better catcher than A-Rod.

Not really since Rivera actually used to be a starter.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:29 pm
by The Jury
psflipper wrote:
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.


It's not ridiculous. You're attempting to compare starters to relievers, which is like comparing carpet fibres to hangnails.

Rivera may or may not be as good/bad as those starters you named or any other starter, but he's definitely not as good a starter as a reliever.

I'm sure you'll agree that that Eric Gagne is at least in Rivera's class as a dominant reliever. Here are Gagne's numbers. Only in 2002, when he started zero games, was he dominant.

Pitching
Year Team G GS W L SV IP H R ER BB K CG SHO ERA WHIP
1999 LA 5 5 1 1 0 30.0 18 8 7 15 30 0 0 2.10 1.10
2000 LA 20 19 4 6 0 101.0 106 62 58 60 79 0 0 5.17 1.64
2001 LA 33 24 6 7 0 151.2 144 90 80 46 130 0 0 4.76 1.26
2002 LA 77 0 4 1 52 82.1 55 18 18 16 114 0 0 1.97 0.86
2003 LA 77 0 2 3 55 82.1 37 12 11 20 137 0 0 1.20 0.69
2004 LA 70 0 7 3 45 82.1 53 24 20 22 114 0 0 2.19 0.91
2005 LA 14 0 1 0 8 13.1 10 4 4 3 22 0 0 2.70 0.98

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:33 pm
by The Jury
Mo Rivera's numbers:

Pitching
Year Team G GS W L SV IP H R ER BB K CG SHO ERA WHIP
1995 NYY 19 10 5 3 0 67.0 71 43 41 30 51 0 0 5.51 1.51
1996 NYY 61 0 8 3 5 107.0 73 25 25 34 130 0 0 2.10 1.00
1997 NYY 66 0 6 4 43 71.0 65 17 15 20 68 0 0 1.90 1.20
1998 NYY 54 0 3 0 36 61.0 48 13 13 17 36 0 0 1.92 1.07
1999 NYY 66 0 4 3 45 69.0 43 15 14 18 52 0 0 1.83 0.88
2000 NYY 66 0 7 4 36 75.0 58 26 24 25 58 0 0 2.88 1.11
2001 NYY 71 0 4 6 50 80.2 61 24 21 12 83 0 0 2.36 0.91
2002 NYY 45 0 1 4 28 46.0 35 16 14 11 41 0 0 2.74 1.00
2003 NYY 64 0 5 2 40 70.2 61 15 13 10 63 0 0 1.66 1.00
2004 NYY 74 0 4 2 53 78.2 65 17 17 20 66 0 0 1.94 1.08
2005 NYY 46 0 5 2 30 49.0 25 11 5 11 54 0 0 0.92 0.73

Just like Gagne's, the year that he starts zero games is the year that enters into dominance.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:38 pm
by bigh0rt
Yoda wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:Just being presumptuous here, but I assume his arm couldn't shoulder the workload of a 300+ inning season of work, or the throwing 100 pitches every 5 days schedule. A lot of pitchers have had this happen, including the likes of Jason Isringhausen, Octavio Dotel, among others. Pitching under 100 IP/season is a day at the beach compared to a SPs workload of innings.


Actually this had absolutely nothing to do with it.


Then enlighten me. I'm interested, myself. As I said, I was being presumptuous, and actually have no clue. But, since you've already discounted my notion, I'd love to know the real deal.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:14 pm
by Yoda
bigh0rt wrote:
Yoda wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:Just being presumptuous here, but I assume his arm couldn't shoulder the workload of a 300+ inning season of work, or the throwing 100 pitches every 5 days schedule. A lot of pitchers have had this happen, including the likes of Jason Isringhausen, Octavio Dotel, among others. Pitching under 100 IP/season is a day at the beach compared to a SPs workload of innings.


Actually this had absolutely nothing to do with it.


Then enlighten me. I'm interested, myself. As I said, I was being presumptuous, and actually have no clue. But, since you've already discounted my notion, I'd love to know the real deal.


This is what I posted shortly after the original post:

Yoda wrote:He was originally a starter. But with only a dominant fastball, he was better suited for the pen and look how well it worked out.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 6:52 pm
by waterproof
Yoda wrote:
This is what I posted shortly after the original post:

Yoda wrote:He was originally a starter. But with only a dominant fastball, he was better suited for the pen and look how well it worked out.


;-D

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:44 pm
by mbuser
for no apparent reason i will point out that rivera's 1990 rookie ball stats are about as good as i've ever seen

22 G (1 GS), 52 IP, 17 H, 1 ER, 7 BB, 58 K, 0.17 ERA, 0.46 WHIP

link