I won't get into symantecs over percentages or a 10-15 point swing in averages. Curtis is a lifetime 264 hitter however he batted between 270 and 300 when he was a Yank, When all is said and done with Kotsay's career let's see his career batting average at that time. I'm sure that it won't be much better than Curtis. So if his potential is to be a average offensive player with sparkplug potential who does the little things why should the Yanks trade 2 prospects who haven;t peaked yet in the minors? Who upsides as major leaguer is far better than Kotsay's?
First off, what exactly is so terrible with Chad Curtis? Didn't the Yankees win
when they had him? Back to now...why would Kotsay cost 2 prospects? He's having a down year, statistically, except for rbi's and he does make a considerable amount of money for an A. There are plenty of major leaguers with more upside than Kotsay, but none are realistic acquisitions unless the Yankees do part with prospects. And even then, the Yankees are bringing in another high profile player and they don't need that; Kotsay is quiet, he flies under the radar, he's a typical late 90's Yankee...something the Yankees desperately need.
Whoa bro your going way off base now and where should I begin.....I had no problem with Curtis and how on earth did you infer that? Actaully you thought my comparison of Curtis to Kotsay was laughable so I guess I can infer that you think Kotsay is superior to Curtis. And the Yankees did NOT WIN becuase of Chad Curtis they won becuae the WHOLE team played fundamental baseball for the bettterment of the team which all started with Boggs then Raines then Jeter tehn Oniell then Jeter then Tino then Brosius. The pitching was underateda and solid with Key, Petite and Cone. The bullpen was automatic and they had Rivera the most important piece of the Yankee team squash any rally mounting and he also bridged the 8th and 9th innings to ensure a yankees win. The Yanks didn;t win becuase of Curtis or that one player who did the small things. It was a total cummulative team effort begiinnig with Boggs, Jeter and Oniell working the pitchers for 20-30 pithces in the first and then the second and then the third. It was solid pitching efforts like Petite against Smoltz who kept the game close and outpithing Smoltz even though he was out skilled. Or a less than 100% Jimmey Key again pitching to keep the game close when he was being outpitched by MAddux so that the team had a chance to get into the bullpen. Then when things really got into trouble Mariano came in to put out the rally. This was why the Yankees won not becuase they had a spark plug and this is what the papers mean when they say no one does the little things not your definition or interpretation of what you might see on occasion or read. The Yankees are now a team of hackers and impatient hitters which all began with Giambi and intensified after Oniell and Tino left the Yanks. Wade Biggs and Raines use to set the tone and their patience was infective and the whole team followed their suit. They weren;t sparkplugs and weren;t always the most dynamic fielders but what they had were superior batting sklills to go with their inner fortitude and desire to win. They both had good batting eyes and were really excellent hitters not marginal hitters. Jeter was the sparkplug. As far as defense they had a sold middle with Jeter Knoblauch, Duncan and a young Bernie Williams plus Giradi and then Posada as catchers. A solid Middle of the field made it easy to carry a less then average outfielder like Strawberry and a limited range Boggs. But then the Yanks were fortunate not to be too deficient defensively at the corner postions with Oniell and Tino and then Brosius came. Back to now, Why would Kotsay cost 2 prospects? The reports are that the A's asked for Hughes and Duncan for Kotsay and Byrnes and since Byrnes is a total non factor the trade comes down to Duncan and Hughes or lets say Duncan and a .45 percent of a Hughes to satisfy you need for Symantecs. A down year for Kotsay??? Offensively he was never that much better than a marginal offensive player so how could a marginal offensive player have a down year? Only good to outstanding hitters have a down year marginal players have mediocre years and Kotsay is having a mediocre year. Should we have expected fireworks with his bat? Nope and should never do. So basically in all this spiel back and forth, you basically saying that with the current market the best the Yankees can get for their 2 very good prospects is a Kotsay and a over hyped Byrnes and we should take it. Ever heard of when the markets not there fold your cards and don’t force the trade or sale? The market is very weak this year and full of junk so why should the Yanks force a trade and trade away some very solid prospects with high potentials for junk? And Kotsay is Free agent this offseason so why pay a premium for him now when you can get him for free as a free agent? Of course to get a high profile player you must part with a prospect but Kotsay is not a high profile player nor does he have to skills or potential to warrant a good to great prospect(s). If the Yanks need a sparkplug and a sound player we already have one with Bubba Crosby at AAA and if need another I’m sure we can reach down into another teams AAA team and trade some marginal prospect to get him.
Kotsay is 29 and he's struggling in his first year as a ALer so is this to suggest that next year when he is 30 he is going to finally breakout? And if he does he has 2 years left before the inevitable decline begins. So again is it worth trading 2 sub 24 aged prospects for a soon to be 30 something who has been nothing more than a teaser. Nope. As far as the little things go without the standout offensvie skills or pop they mean absolutely nothing on a any team. No offense to Twins fan but look at the Twins. Every player is well schooled and they can all do the little things however until someone stands out offensively head and shoulders above the rest they will never win a WS agianst the other power teams in both the AL and NL.
Where to begin? First of all, Kotsay is in his second year in the AL, not his first.
Secondly, while statistically he's having a down-year, that doesn't mean he's struggling. I've stressed this many times, but I guess I'll have to do it again; Kotsay does the little things. Just to stress how important those little things are; what was the turning point in the ALCS last season? Millar's walk and Roberts stolen base. I don't think anyone argues that. Do not tell me every player can do the little things. Trust me, Sean Burroughs cannot. He doesn't hit behind runners, he doesn't slide correctly, he isn't a very heads-up baserunner or fielder, etc. Some players, no matter how well they can see and hit a baseball, do not make good gamers. Kotsay is not one of those; he knows how to play. Choosing not to have him would be a mistake.
He’s having a down year???? A down year from what high levels of consistently good to excellent production??? Your not referring to his minor league stats are you? I guess he used to post seasons in the majors of 300avg 100 runs 25hrs 100 rbis 15 steals? His best year was last year but on average, and don’t throw symantecs at me here just because I didn’t waste 10 minutes of my time to find the actual average means of his statistics over the 9 seasons of his career, his numbers average out to around a 285 avg, 80 runs 10 HR 55 RBI. MEDIOCRE and as I said fundamentally sound players who hit mediocre cannot make a difference or impact in the areas where the Yanks need help. There has to be something strong or standout in their offensive game and Kotsay does not have any standout qualifications. And with regards to the little things I find it very amusing how small facts in a scenario can be omitted which gives part of the story or as they state half of the picture …are you a lawyer by chance? I’m sure we all saw the ALCS last year. Miller’s walk was due to a nervous Tom Gordon who basically was scared shitless. He was afraid to make his pitch and was trying to nibble and throw the hitters strides off. He was so tight and I mean TIGHT that some of his pitches almost didn’t make it to homeplate. I have never ever seen a seasoned veteran so tight as Gordon was only just up AAA rookies. So was it more Miller being sound fundamentally and doing the little things or Gordon having no balls or courage. It was Gordon having no balls. And if the scenario were different we would have seen Rivera and not Gordon in and the little something that Miller supposedly done would have probably been K or ground out. Roberts did the little things huh? Gee since Roberts is a speed demon and a stolen base terror on the bases I don’t see this as him doing the little things but more so as the Sox having a player off the bench whose sole purpose was to steal bases and pinch run. Since Roberts forte is a player who can steal bases how can this be construed as him doing the little things. This is more a case of Redsox management trading for a rarity in the majors and that is a established one dimensional player with outstanding speed whom executed as he was expected too. So was Roberts a case of a player who was fundamentally sound who did a little thing or a player who played to what his strength was and did what he basically was SUPPOSED to do and that is stealing bases and no more. I guess if we trade for a mediocre Kotsay I should expect him to hit a clutch homerun or steal 2 bases during an inning when the Yanks need it most huh? Or maybe get a clutch hit when called upon to do so. I can expect all this because he is a fundamentally sound player who does all the little things. Fundalmentally sound players without any standout offensive skills are nothing more than mediocre players whom are fun to watch for the fans. Take away Jeter’s standout qualities and skills and all you’ll have left is a fundamentally sound average basic light hitting SS. Given his current skills you have a sparkplug, game setting elite shortstop. I rest my case on this point.
Read again I never said every player in the majors was well schooled and can do the little things I said only the Twins are well schooled and don’t tell me your going to debate that point with me too.
If Kotsay eventually becomes a Yank I won’t have an issue with it and never said that I would. What I stated was I wouldn’t trade high end or solid high ceiling prospects for him and I wouldn’t expect him to make a huge difference in the Yankee lineup. What I also said was he doesn’t have enough stand out skills to make a impact and that;s what the Yanks need. Since he is incapable of this why should we trade prospects who have the potential to be the types of players we need. And especially why trade for a player whom can be had as a free agent at season’s end whom is NOT THAT SPECIAL and MEDIOCRE but does the little things. My girlfriend does the little things but this doesn’t mean I’m going to marry her.
And how would Kotsay be a teaser? You know what you get with Kotsay...it isn't like he's a feast-or-famine flashy player. Kotsay provides stability to a team who has had too much instability the past calendar year. Prospects, more than anything else, are teasers because they have talent and hype, but haven't pieced it together yet. That said, please don't refer to Mark Kotsay as a teaser.
I’m sorry to say this but you have Kotsay on too high of a plain than he actually is. Your making it sound like as though Kotsay is a veteran player in the mold of a Tim Raines or Mark McGwire whom had veteran leadership and a clubhouse presence. As though he was will be the messiah for the Yanks who will lead the Yanks to the promised land.
And how will his holiness Kotsay stabilize the Yanks? I guess being a baseball observer and Padre fan makes you a bonifide seer into what ails the Yanks. Well there are a whole lot of things wrong with the Yanks that no one player can fix and especially not a Kotsay. The problem is hitting, infield defense, CF, age, weak bullpen and questionable starting pitching so unless Kotsay can do a lil of everything I can’t see how he’ll “stabilize”the Yanks. Maybe if he can play drums and sing like a bird he could sing a lullaby to a grumpy Sheffield or jam with Giambi to improve their attitudes. Maybe we should canonize him a saint before he even wears pinstripes and make a plaque in Monument park for him because he’ll be our savoir who will part the red sea like Moses once did. Yeah okay.
A teaser is a any player who always hints at higher expectations bur never lives up or lives up to that lofty expectation. I’m not sure where you received your interpretation of a teaser but hit and miss and flash in the pants? How could you interpret that as a teaser? That’s more a definition of a prospect. Prospects are just that to the letter of the definition so I can’t see how they can be teasers. You don’t expect all prospects to make the majors and obviously most never do. Players make the majors for an assortment of reasons. Kotsay came to the pros with very high expectations with the Marlins. He supposedly had decent power and should have hit for average and at times in Florida showed some of it, initially that is. I watched him in Florida, why because I had him in a high stakes game when he was a marlin and continued to watch him abit as a padre. Now he’s off my radar screen. Since the expectation was for him to be a 300 avg 20 HR player with good RBI’s numbers has he lived up to these numbers? At 29 soon to be 30 what is the probability now that he can reach this plateau and sustain that level of production for more than a year or 2. Almost nil to improbable. Since he has moments where he looks to break out only to return to mediocrity he is a teaser. Kotsay is a teaser and being hyped to teams stupid enough to think he’ll finally become that 300avg 20 hr 100 rbi player.
Besides the Yanks have players who already do the lilttle things. The problem is that they have too many hackers in the lineup and the team lacks players who can hit and have heart. Besides I have to question Kotsay. Beane is not dope at talent evaluation. If Kotsay was a keeper he would not be shopping him like a 5 cent floozy.
That's the nature of Billy Beane...he doesn't keep older players around. Besides, he has a quandry of talent to his disposal in the minor leagues...he needs to bring that up while they're still young. Billy Beane dealt Ramon Hernandez at the beginning of last season...he's been terrible hasn't he? No one is perfect...Beane's just trying to find playing time for the younger players while grabbing another younger player in the process. Nothing wrong with that.
Thanks for your enlightenment, I never said there was anything wrong with that.. business is business and I disagree with the older players being shipped out when they are old in order to keep the younger players and to give them a chance. Beane is trying to get the maximum productive efficiency with his working capital. If Mulder and Hudson were in the class of a RJ or Pedro believe me they would still be A’s however Beane is seeking maximum efficiency with this working capital so why should he commit a large portion of his limited capital to Hudson and Mulder when he has cheaper and equally productive or potentially equal alternatives in Harden, Blanton, Sarloos and could trade for a Haren. Zito was the weakest of the Oakland big 3 but he’s a lefty so he’s still an A’s. The same was for Hernandez, he needed Hernandez but could not retain him or found his salaray ineffiecient with his current roster at that time against his limited cap. He thought that Dye, Durazo (thought to be a steal by Beane at the time) and Chavez would be adequate for his lineup and made a trade based on s-t and l-t value with Hernandez. In other words he played the percentages and did it work out? I won’t question the trade it was nice on paper but I’m sure Beane expected more but got less then what he expected from Kotsay the same as with Durazo and Dye. No one is perfect and I never said anyone was. Beane has a pretty good eye and he a wheeler and dealer. Example traded for Weaver and probably didn’t really like him for the same reason I didn’t but knew he was a chip and shipped him off to Cashman for 2 prospects Lilly and a OF whose name I can’t recall but at the time he was a marginal Yankee prospect worth a shot. IN other words Beane doesn’t ship or trade players unless on a dollar for production value he feels that the player is worth it. If he feels that the player is not worth that salary or will not achieve a level of adequate production he will trade him and hopefully before his value drops to maximize his return. Kotsay is a dump before the market drops player
He'es been shopping him and Byrnes for months now. Bynes since March I believe. Kotsay if traded will be with his 4 team. Now the teams he was traded from both Florida and SD weren't teams that were overflowing with stud OFs in fact Kotsay was a Marlin after they traded Wilson and Floyd and really needed OF's yet they traded him because he was dispensible. SAme with SD, last year you guys had no idea Klesko was going to have year he had this year and yet you traded him because he was dispensible.
The reason San Diego traded Kotsay was because there was a far greater need on the team and that was at catcher. Do you even know who the catcher was before Hernandez? Tom Lampkin, Gary Bennett, Wiki Gonzalez, Ben Davis...the list goes on of terrible catchers the Padres have had. That was the reason behind the trade; acquiring an all-star catcher.
And actually, I did have an idea Klesko was going to have a year like he is having (although I don't think you know Kotsay was traded before last season, not before this season).http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/foru ... &&start=15http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/foru ... &&start=30
Do you even know who the Marlins got for Kotsay? They got Eric Owens (another true gamer) who could replace Kotsay in Florida, as well as Matt Clement and a useful utilityman Cesar Crespo.
Half the story half the picture. The marlins were internally disappointed with Kotsay but he had value so they shopped him. Owens another gamer but that was all he was a gamer with no stick but at the time of the trade he had some “potential” In other words he really sucked. As far as Clement, he was a potential prospect for a year or so already, Had a great arm and had moments where he pitched like an ace but was very very inconsistent and erratic. Now don’t tell me the Padres weren;t fed up with his inconsistency. Plus they had a plethora of younger arms coming up like Lawrence, Eaton and a few other names I can’t recall. So this wasn;t a trade where the Padres paid top value because Kotsay was that special. Clement even wore out his welcome as a Marlin and really didn’t sort of put it all together until he became a Cub. The Marlin/Padre trade was a trade of convenience for both. Kotay wasn’t living up to his hype and Clement had major question marks on him. Padres were in search of a OF since they didn’t have Giles at the time and the Marlins were looking for another young solid arm to go with Penny and Beckett. Their staff was in it’s infancy stage and other thatn Penny and maybe another picher their staff was very shaky so the trade made sense on a risk reward basis for both teams.
The same for the Hernandez trade the trade made sense to do for both sides at the time. Kotsay was still viewed as a player yet to reach his potential and these were the types of palyers Beane wanted, undervalued assets. But can you say that Kotsay has reached that potential as an A’s. Nope
Now this is an informal site and debate so don’t get cutsy tutsy over the fact I was off on one year on his tenure as an A’s. As much as I love baseball and the Yankees I don’t immersify myself into every little statistical nuance. I already spend enough of my time with the game and have a very good knowledge of the players and the game to be very effective. And besides I have a life other than scouring over statistics. Regardless of my err it doesn’t detract from the fact that Kotsay is mediocre and is not worth a premium like you suggest.
Now don’t tell me that you seriously knew Klesko would return to adequate form this year without you speaking as a faithful and hopeful Padre or Klesko fan. When more than half the scouts in the MLB said he was done, you mean to say that you the minority and pro wannabe knew a 34 year old player with a history of injuries and back problems would be respectable this year. Yep sure you seriously and whole heartedly did. Say I made a accurate predition too, I predicted RJ’s decline this year when the trade was made
Oakland's OF's are not exactly all world. If Kotsay and Bynes were all that special then I'm sure Beane would keep 1 or both but they are not anything special and are hence dispensible. ANd it can;t be money because since they dumped Mulder and Hudson they do have some flexiblity with the $$ however Beane doensn;t see value in keeping marginal fundamentally sound ballplayers who will never be anything but average and I agree with him. Beane is no fool and he never gives anything away for free so if Kotsay was anything close to an Edmonds or a Jeter in terms of heart and the lil things he wouldn't be shopping him like a pimp. Buyer beware of Billy Beane bearing gifts. Here are Kotsay's stats. There is nothing there that shows he will be anything more than a marginal fundamentally sound sparkplug ballplayer. If we needed a sparkplug we'd call up Bubba Crosby from the AAA not trade 2 very good prospects for Kotsay. We need heart and pop.
I applaud you for posting Kotsay's statistics. How many 'moved runners over' did he have? How about outfield assists? You should post those statistics, too, since almost every outfield assist saves a run and moving runners over produces runs.
I finally have a good player to compare Kotsay to: Johnny Damon with less speed but a much better arm, a quieter mouth, and less age. But you probably wanted Damon when those rumors arose, didn't you? And while we're speaking about "rumors", lemme get one thing straight; Xavier Nady is going nowhere. I am sure of that. Quit calling them rumors too, they're nothing more than talkshow fodder.
Sure statistic never tell the whole story and they can be manipulated to lead to a conclusion but that’s all you’ve been throwing in my face since this debate started. So I guess whats good for the goose is good for the gander. True the Yankees don’t do the small things anymore and again is Kotsay going to be the savior who shows the Yanks how? Nope. Is the problem that the whole team is fundamentally flawed or is it just one or 2 players. The answer is that it is just a few players namely Giambi and Shef. Giambi is a walking disaster. Shef produces but he has to stop trying to hit 15 run homers. Bernie is old and how much longer can we expect Tino to produce. Cano is capable of doing all the small things with the bat and as a player gives all that Kotsay does and he has a lil more pop in that stick than Kotsay. Plus he since he’s a gap hitter he should hit for average so he should be a average hitter with pop and speed who’ll bat second behind Jeter for a long time. Plus he’s still a 23 year old rookie. The only thing is he doens;t play the OF and that is where the need is however there are a whole lot of OF available every year so why should the Yanks panic and trade for a mediocre Kotsay just because he’s a gamer. Since Cano gives everything plus more than Kotsay could ever give as a player plus will bat second, what value could a soon to be 30 something player give that will be superior? Not much if anything.
Comparing Damon to Kotsay????? Know I’m laughing my ass off. Sorry buddy you place too much value on your Padre players and Kotsay. Your Padres are a very good team with excellent pitching but your position players current and former aren’t all that.
Damon played on a very bad KC team and yet had very very admirable numbers. He had quite a few games as a Royal where he jacked out multiple HR’s and I think he even had 1 or 2 3 HR games. He also games where he has 5-9 rbis a game! He scored over 100 runs 3 times on a very bad KC team and stole over 25 bases for 4 out of 6 seasons as a royal. Plus he was 26 years old at the time of his trade to Oakland. There’s a world of difference between what Damon’s potential and accomplishments were at age 26 than what Kotsay’s accomplished are at age 30. Kotsay couldn’t carry Damon;s cleats and the Yanks shouldn’t have to pay a premium for a bag boy.
Eric Owens is a far better comparison to Kotsay than Damon.
Last edited by dimaggio5 on Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.