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Does the Yankee shake-up help?

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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed May 04, 2005 9:49 pm

Trojan Pony wrote:If you honestly think Jeter is "awful" you need to get your head out of the stat sheets you're basing this determination on and start watching some games. There might be shortstops who make the routine plays better than Jeter but Jeter makes plays that other shortstops would never even think to attempt. He puts 110% effort into the position and that makes up for any deficincies he might have in raw defensive talent.


I guarantee I watch as many games as the next guy, but here's the fundamental flaw in your argument.

NONE OF US GET TO WATCH EVERY SS PLAY EVERY GAME.

Because without watching every SS play every game (or at least watching a LOT of games from EVERY SS), you really cannot judge who is the best.

And that's where the stats come in handy. They accurately summarize each thing a player does, allowing us to compare each player based on reasonably objective evidence.

Now think about your argument applied to hitting. "I know Royce Clayton is a better hitter than Pujols. He gives 110% and legs out hits that Pujols cannot even think about making."

You know you would split a side laughing at that.

So, rather than talk about what you or I think or even try to guess how hard a player plays, let's do this: measure what each fielder does.

That's what these new fielding measures do. Measures like UZR, DRA, DFT, etc do is chart where every ball is hit. Then they identify whether the fielder in the area where the ball is hit gets to the ball and makes the play.

And they are showing some really good results. They show Jeter does have some very strong abilities. For instance, he's really great at getting to pop flies over his head. He's one of the best in the game at that. But, he's also got really, really terrible range. He just doesn't get a very good first step on the ball. And, as a result, he costs his team about 20 runs per year:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/print ... art-three/

So, who should we believe. Your claim based on nothing more than the few games of a few SS that you get to watch.

Or a summary of EVERY ball hit to EVERY SS over the past 3 years.

It's not even close.

Jeter's an awful fielder.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Thu May 05, 2005 6:50 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Trojan Pony wrote:If you honestly think Jeter is "awful" you need to get your head out of the stat sheets you're basing this determination on and start watching some games. There might be shortstops who make the routine plays better than Jeter but Jeter makes plays that other shortstops would never even think to attempt. He puts 110% effort into the position and that makes up for any deficincies he might have in raw defensive talent.


I guarantee I watch as many games as the next guy, but here's the fundamental flaw in your argument.

NONE OF US GET TO WATCH EVERY SS PLAY EVERY GAME.

Because without watching every SS play every game (or at least watching a LOT of games from EVERY SS), you really cannot judge who is the best.

And that's where the stats come in handy. They accurately summarize each thing a player does, allowing us to compare each player based on reasonably objective evidence.

Now think about your argument applied to hitting. "I know Royce Clayton is a better hitter than Pujols. He gives 110% and legs out hits that Pujols cannot even think about making."

You know you would split a side laughing at that.

So, rather than talk about what you or I think or even try to guess how hard a player plays, let's do this: measure what each fielder does.

That's what these new fielding measures do. Measures like UZR, DRA, DFT, etc do is chart where every ball is hit. Then they identify whether the fielder in the area where the ball is hit gets to the ball and makes the play.

And they are showing some really good results. They show Jeter does have some very strong abilities. For instance, he's really great at getting to pop flies over his head. He's one of the best in the game at that. But, he's also got really, really terrible range. He just doesn't get a very good first step on the ball. And, as a result, he costs his team about 20 runs per year:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/print ... art-three/

So, who should we believe. Your claim based on nothing more than the few games of a few SS that you get to watch.

Or a summary of EVERY ball hit to EVERY SS over the past 3 years.

It's not even close.

Jeter's an awful fielder.

Thanks, I was tired of arguing against this, but I don't know where to get all those numbers. Thanks for doing it for me ;-D
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Thu May 05, 2005 10:02 am

Those numbers don't really tell you anything. They ignore the fact where Jeter might be told to play particular hitters. It is also dependent on pitching staffs. You can make stats tell you anything you want, depending on what you want to get out of them. Saying they show you that Jeter costs his team x number of runs per year is simply not believable. You can come up with others to show you just the opposite, just depending on what you choose to use.
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Postby RAmst23 » Thu May 05, 2005 10:47 am

Wow, I feel sorry for starting this topic. On top of that, I feel sorry for myself for reading these last 3 pages. and my head hurts because of drinking.

Anyway, while I think Jeter isn't that great of a fielder, he really isn't THAT BAD either. Before even glancing at statistics, just watch the guy. Does he really look and field like an awful shortstop? I've seen plenty of shortstops play, and while no he isn't the greatest one ever, he's not flat out awful. I'd agree with middle of the pack shortstop, but not bottom tier.

On another note, I do get annoyed when announcers praise Jeter for his backhanded catch then jump and throw to first play. It's a freaking dumb play, and that paticular play is because of his lack of range. He has to make that play all the time because he can't get over there. At least he makes that play though.
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Postby nsulham » Thu May 05, 2005 11:54 am

At the risk of angering both sides, I'd just like to point out that this thread isn't really going to change many minds.

Pro-Jeter people will choose to firmly believe that he's a fine fielder and anti-Jeter people will firmly believe the opposite.
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Postby Absolutely Adequate » Thu May 05, 2005 1:07 pm

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Sometimes, you can't "just watch" to know what's going on. Sometimes, you need to take scientific measurements to determine the truth.
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Postby The Kavorka » Thu May 05, 2005 1:17 pm

Jeter is most valuable when the playoffs are on the line. In a big spot when it's put up or shut up time Jeter comes through most of the time. I've never been a big fan of his during the regular season.

He's like the Troy Aikman of football or the Claude Lemiuex of Hockey. Average regular season players that don't impress with fantasy statistics but come playoff time they are MONEY.

And this is coming from a Mets fan.
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