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Postby Tavish » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:16 pm

Pochucker wrote:Pacman,
Didnt Boston have some other guy who played LF later? What was his name? Oh yea Jim Rice, now there was a hell of a ballplayer for his era! Oops I better ask the stat guys if he was good
ballplayer or not!


Rice really wasn't that impressive.
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Postby quietstorm » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:18 pm

Pochucker wrote:Pacman,
Didnt Boston have some other guy who played LF later? What was his name? Oh yea Jim Rice, now there was a hell of a ballplayer for his era! Oops I better ask the stat guys if he was good
ballplayer or not!

Ahh, yes, belittle the statheads. How about you make a case for why Allen was better than Bagwell. You don't have to use stats, but make sure it's objective, mmkay?
Your wisemen don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick...
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Postby Pacman » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:21 pm

Tavish wrote:
Pochucker wrote:Pacman,
Didnt Boston have some other guy who played LF later? What was his name? Oh yea Jim Rice, now there was a hell of a ballplayer for his era! Oops I better ask the stat guys if he was good
ballplayer or not!


Rice really wasn't that impressive.



And it's great to be an American where we're free to STRONGLY disagree on how impressive Jim Rice was. My family had season tickets though the 70s and early 80s, I watched that guy play so many games. He was one of the strongest hitters I ever watched swing a bat.

One knock on Rice is he's one of those guys who hung around a couple of years too long. His last couple of seasons (around 88-ish), his skills had diminished to the point fans were getting on him a bit.

But in his prime.. he was a great slugger.
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Postby quietstorm » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:27 pm

*checks the stats*

Rice was a fine corner outfielder. 89 career WARP3, though only a 26.5 3-year peak. He's awfully close to Allen, IMO. It's also worth noting that his translated career HR total is 505, even if he was at 380-something in reality.
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Postby Pochucker » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:32 pm

Yea Rice was wasnt impressive- that says it all! What so many of you dont seem to be able to do is separate real life from fantasy.
You know whose opinion I respect about players? Players who played against them, nor stat geeks.
For those of you who have actually ever played a sport, stop and think, did someone have to tell you who the best players were? No , you figured it out real quick didnt you? Thats why I value other players opinions.I dont have the quotes in front of me but go talk to people who played against these guys. Ask Tom Seaver what he thought of Rich Allen. Or maybe Seaver is "unimpressive" to you guys also.
While your at it "stat" guys tell me your opinion of Spahn and Marichal
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:41 pm

Tavish wrote:Allen was a much better offensive player than Bagwell. He is ranked low by James A) because he had a much shorter career B) James doesn't like controversial players like Allen or Hornsby.


On what objective evidence are you basing that claim, Tavish? There's no real difference to a slight edge for Bagwell using every measure I've seen.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:51 pm

Pochucker wrote:Yea Rice was wasnt impressive- that says it all! What so many of you dont seem to be able to do is separate real life from fantasy.
You know whose opinion I respect about players? Players who played against them, nor stat geeks.
For those of you who have actually ever played a sport, stop and think, did someone have to tell you who the best players were? No , you figured it out real quick didnt you? Thats why I value other players opinions.I dont have the quotes in front of me but go talk to people who played against these guys. Ask Tom Seaver what he thought of Rich Allen. Or maybe Seaver is "unimpressive" to you guys also.
While your at it "stat" guys tell me your opinion of Spahn and Marichal


Rice was a very good player, but he simply never sustained his peak for very long. At age 25 his most comparable player in MLB history was Wille Mays. But he never approached that level again during his last ten years, and ended up only about 20-30% better than league average for his career. He's somewhat overrated because of his high level of RBIs and the fact that people forget that he is 6th all time in grouding into double plays.

I don't give a rat's ass what ANYONE's opinion is. I judge things based on the facts, not opinions.

Spahn easily top ten pitcher of all time, possibly even top 5.
Marichal, next level down, top 25 or so.
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Postby Tavish » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:51 pm

quietstorm wrote:*checks the stats*

Rice was a fine corner outfielder. 89 career WARP3, though only a 26.5 3-year peak. He's awfully close to Allen, IMO. It's also worth noting that his translated career HR total is 505, even if he was at 380-something in reality.


His highest OPS+ season is 158 which is awfully close to Allen's career OPS+. He never broke the .400 OBP mark, led the league in GIDP for 4 straight seasons, and was a player built to be great in Fenway. He wasn't an awful fielder but wasn't quite average.

I'm not saying Rice wasn't a good player because he was. I'm only saying that he was not as good as many of those who make a big fuss about him not being in the HoF make him out to be. And certainly not as good as Yaz was.
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Postby Pacman » Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:56 pm

Tavish wrote:

And certainly not as good as Yaz was.



The whole Rice tangent was born out of a shout-out I threw to my boyhood hero Yaz. I agree that Rice, while he was someone I loved to watch play, doesn't have the career numbers of the guys listed at the beginning of this thread. He's a just-miss HoF'er too... always getting a respectable number of votes, but never enough for induction.

One think I remember about Yaz, he was inducted the same day as Johnny Bench -- anohter guy I loved to watch play.
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Postby Tavish » Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:09 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Tavish wrote:Allen was a much better offensive player than Bagwell. He is ranked low by James A) because he had a much shorter career B) James doesn't like controversial players like Allen or Hornsby.


On what objective evidence are you basing that claim, Tavish? There's no real difference to a slight edge for Bagwell using every measure I've seen.


How does Bagwell get a slight edge in the numbers you used earlier?

From James' Win Shares (this was through 2000):

Career Win Shares
Bagwell 287
Allen 342

Highest 3 Win Share years:
Bagwell 41, 37, 32
Allen 41, 40, 35

Top 5 years Win Share total:
Bagwell 163
Allen 170

Win Share per 162
Bagwell 31.50
Allen 31.68

Career OPS+
Bagwell 150
Allen 156

Allen 7-time All-Star, led the league in OPS 4 times, HR 2 times, OBP 2 times, SLG 3 times.
Bagwell 4-time All-Star, OPS 1 time, OBP never, SLG 1 time.
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