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How Long until Jeter is playing 3rd?

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Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:45 pm

ajgdrummer7 wrote:
You seem to not be getting my point. Wakefield's back was not against the wall as much as Pedro's was. He was just pitching. He was not put in in a situation where one bloop costs them the season. Of course he gave a great performance by advancing the game further but nothing had a lasting effect in his performance. He didn't tear apart the Yankee's spirit or close out the game. He was just simply bringing it further. There are clutch moments. That is why people can be labeled clutch.

Jeter has had more clutch moments than anyone. I can't even remember alot of them because he's done it his whole career. There's been many times where he steps up and gets that key hit. Nomar may have that ability but he hasn't shown it on the level Jeter has. Nobody in baseball has shown it on the level Jeter has for the amount of times Jeter has.


I don't think you have a point. If Boone hitting a HR is clutch, as is Posada's hit, Wakefield had to be clutch, as he was pitching in the extra innings, against a team with last at-bats, in Game 7 of the ALCS.

Jeter has had more "clutch moments" than anyone? Well, part of that is the extended playoffs as we've discussed, but he's also choked a lot too--also a product of the large number of times he's been put in what you've called "clutch" moments--but I'll call "clutch/choke" moments. We must remember, based on your thinking, that if someone is in a clutch moment, and fails, then he choked.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:46 pm

You are coming off as Jeter is the reason we won before so why are we adding Sheff and A-Rod now.....

Jeter on SS is obviously not the reason that we won all the world series but we did win them regardless. However he isn't the reason we lost the last few either. We added those players to help us more....however your argument is that we will lose if we play Jeter on short.....he cost us nothing then why the hell would he all of the sudden cost us something now?
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Postby Mookie4ever » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:52 pm

ajgdrummer7 wrote:You are coming off as Jeter is the reason we won before so why are we adding Sheff and A-Rod now.....

Jeter on SS is obviously not the reason that we won all the world series but we did win them regardless. However he isn't the reason we lost the last few either. We added those players to help us more....however your argument is that we will lose if we play Jeter on short.....he cost us nothing then why the hell would he all of the sudden cost us something now?


This is getting frustrating - are you even reading what I am posting??

I never said that you will lose if Jeter plays ss or that you won b/c he played ss. I am saying that Arod at ss gives you a better chance of winning. Other people have said it as well. If your reaction is that it makes such a small difference that you don't need to bother with it - fine, good luck and God bless.

It would, however, be a sad waste of Arod's defensive talents. But the Yanks have the money and the talent to waste.
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Postby ajgnydc722 » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:54 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:
lesgrant wrote:And Mookie the Yankees will win the AL pennant with Jeter at short and A-rod at 3rd base. That’s just life in the Empire. And don't tell me you are a Mets' fan crying about money issues because that just won't wash.


That is perhaps the most arrogant post that you have made.

What will you say when it is game 7 of the WS and in the 10th inning Jeff Kent slaps a ground ball that just sneaks by Jeter's glove to bring in the winning run from 3rd?

Will you say that the Yankees did the best that they could?

Defence matters in the playoffs - where Arod plays during the regular season really won't matter - but in the playoffs where you are playing a short series against a good team defence can win. The Yankees have lost to less skilled, lower paid teams before. To say that they do not need to worry about defence is arrogance.


Mookie I'm coming from the standpoint of....

Jeter has handeled the pressures of playing SS in the postseason MANY times before and he hasn't cost us a championship....so why all of a sudden since A-Rod is in town will he?
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Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:57 pm

lesgrant wrote:Sabermetrics got the Sox as far as the 8th inning in game 7.


So it was sabermetric that made the Sox succeed?

lesgrant wrote: At that point the closer by committee philosophy that Epstein exposed last year in spring training (that sounded very interesting in theory) fell apart. Grady had no clear cut choice to go to in that moment.


Let's remember that the Sox didn't have a "closer by committee". That's what the media calls it because they don't understand the idea. Bill James espouses a "Relief Ace"--an ace of the bullpen that comes in at the most important time of the game. The importance of the semantic distinction is that this RA doesn't have to come in the game in the ninth inning, with no runners on base, with a three-run lead. You're wasting your best pitcher. Foulke may have been Oakland's closer, but their Relief Ace was Bradford.

Now, as to your main point: The Sox HAD a Relief Ace at that point of the season, and it was Timlin. Note that he came in the game and got out of the inning without a problem. However, the problem wasn't Sabermetrics or Bill James, but a manager who was greatly, greatly outcoached by Joe Torre. Little didn't see what everyone at Yankee Stadium saw--Pedro was done.

lesgrant wrote: Derek Jeter is and will be the Yankee SS until he decides otherwise. It’s utterly ridiculous that at every point people hold the NY Yankees to a standard no other team has achieved.


I don't hold the Yankees to a higher standard. The majority of the arguments here were that A-rod is a better shortstop. My thinking is that Jeter is a good enough guy that he could still lead from third. I do understand the issues of it being "Derek's team" and ensuring that he's not bothered by this. But from a pure baseball perspective, Arod should play short.

lesgrant wrote:That is not objectivity whatsoever, so don’t kid yourself.


Objectivity is looking at this from a baseball perspective. Plainly, the Yankees would be a better defensive team with Jeter at third.


lesgrant wrote: You don’t need to cry crocodile tears for the Yankees’ shortstop “issues”. Again, we are talking about 2 HOF players on a team of virtual all-stars which improved it’s roster from the team which won over 100 games the previous season. Put it into perspective, otherwise you are miles away from being objective. I don’t care how many stats you want to whip out to justify your subjectivity.


What's the point of this sentence? I'm not crying about this issue. I'm trying to discuss it. It seems to be other people who are making it to be more than it is.

lesgrant wrote: BTW: As a Red Sox fan, you will be one of the last people in the world of baseball capable of an objectivity towards the Yankees. Thus, your credibility takes a huge hit when you stand up and make proposals about how the Yankees could be a better team. We see through that.


Point taken. But your allegiances are clear, too, which makes the arguments of others, like Hootie, all that more important. However, in general I can usually step back and analyze things quite well, despite my allegiances.
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Postby ramble2 » Wed Feb 18, 2004 1:14 pm

Transmogrifier wrote:
lesgrant wrote: You don’t need to cry crocodile tears for the Yankees’ shortstop “issues”. Again, we are talking about 2 HOF players on a team of virtual all-stars which improved it’s roster from the team which won over 100 games the previous season. Put it into perspective, otherwise you are miles away from being objective. I don’t care how many stats you want to whip out to justify your subjectivity.


What's the point of this sentence? I'm not crying about this issue. I'm trying to discuss it. It seems to be other people who are making it to be more than it is.

lesgrant wrote: BTW: As a Red Sox fan, you will be one of the last people in the world of baseball capable of an objectivity towards the Yankees. Thus, your credibility takes a huge hit when you stand up and make proposals about how the Yankees could be a better team. We see through that.


Point taken. But your allegiances are clear, too, which makes the arguments of others, like Hootie, all that more important. However, in general I can usually step back and analyze things quite well, despite my allegiances.


:-? lesgrant, I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up in this thread. Trans is right, all people are trying to do is have a discussion about how the Yankees can best utilize their team. Claiming that A Rod is a better shortstop than Jeter isn't taking anything away from Jeter - yet you seem to think that this constitutes Yankee-bashing and jump all over people for daring to blasphemy the great Jeter. Go back and read your messages, and then read Trans's messages. Trans has been very fair to the Yankees. Or are only Yankee fans allowed to discuss these things?
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Wed Feb 18, 2004 2:57 pm

I hope they keep Jeter at short and A-Rod at third. Here's why:

From Baseball Prospectus:
Here are the two shortstops' career defensive numbers as regulars, expressed in Fielding Runs Above Replacement, per Clay Davenport:

Year Jeter Rodriguez
-------------------------
1996 5 32
1997 11 11
1998 16 23
1999 8 18
2000 -2 34
2001 4 36
2002 4 34
2003 -3 31
-------------------------
Total 43 219

That's just one statistic, but Jeter ranks poorly by every defensive metric and evaluation system you care to choose, and has for four years running. He's a good baseball player and a replacement-level defensive shortstop; athletic, but lacking certain core skills that are necessary to make someone a positive contributor at the position. Over the past few seasons, Rodriguez has been three to three-and-a-half wins better defensively than Jeter has been. Having the two of them on your team and choosing Jeter to play shortstop is baseball malpractice.


So, I hope they keep Jeter at short and the Red Sox beat them by a game for the AL East title. Then I hope they lose the divison series in game 5 when a ground ball gets past the statue that is Derek Jeter for the game-winning hit. Then I hope it's Kevin Brown on the mound and he walks over and kicks Jeter and Joe Torre in the cojones for not letting A-Rod play short. I'm a "glass is half-full" type person, I guess.
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Postby lesgrant » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:13 pm

ramble2 wrote:lesgrant, I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up in this thread. Trans is right, all people are trying to do is have a discussion about how the Yankees can best utilize their team. Claiming that A Rod is a better shortstop than Jeter isn't taking anything away from Jeter - yet you seem to think that this constitutes Yankee-bashing and jump all over people for daring to blasphemy the great Jeter. Go back and read your messages, and then read Trans's messages. Trans has been very fair to the Yankees. Or are only Yankee fans allowed to discuss these things?


The reason why I classify this stuff as Yankee bashing is because it’s all moot. The best utilization of Yankee talent is the way it has been utilized. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. You are all nit-picking about one of the biggest acquisitions in professional sports history. All of these so called “fair” criticisms, in the end, wind up a complete waste of energy. I’ve listened to this stuff throughout this current Yankee run. It all seems to be based in sentiment that Mookie alluded to earlier: the notion that it is not fair that the Yankees can add high end talent at the rate at which they do and be able to plug them in anywhere. This triggers a “trolling for trash”, looking for the Achilles heel in one of the teams greatest strengths in order to same some degree in pride because others dropped the ball and couldn’t close the deal. It’s so cliché it’s not even funny. (actually it is) It’s the same tired routine every issue, with the same result – it all comes out moot in the wash. Although this is moot before we even begin the season for 2 reasons I’ve mentioned.

If you want to pick a legitimate issue about the ’04 Yanks, try talking about the starting rotation. Now there is where legitimate question marks arise that could actually have bearing on the outcome of the season. But of course, pursue this issue with the same standard you would apply to any other team. That’s objectivity.

I have yet to hear any Red Sox fan talk about Boston weaknesses to the degree at which they go on and on about the Yankees. No one talks about Schilling’s weak numbers in Fenway. No one talks about how Pedro has serious problems beating the Yankees. No, instead, they’ll just chip away at what could be described as one of the greatest lineups ever because it makes them feel better about their team’s chances. When the “ring argument” comes up, they don’t want any part of that bottom line reality.

Fairness and objectivity, in the long run, are all about equal time. I have not witnessed that whatsoever on this board for the short time I have been a member. But why should I bother to expect that given that’s the way it is in the baseball world in general?

If I wanted to be nit picky about the Sox, I’d talk about crap like how they’ve insulted Nomar over the winter in their pursuit of A-rod. I’d talk about how RS Nation bashing of Manny will come back to haunt them. I’d harp on all that tabloid crap that swirls around in the off-season. But, none of that stuff will matter come October. It’s just pure speculation, no matter what sort of statistical analysis it could stand up to.

Trans:
Thanks for the clarification on James’ theory. However, we both know that if you had a Rivera to go to in that situation Grady would have gone to him. That’s why you picked up Faulke in the off-season. If it was merely a managerial blunder and not a structural deficiency, Theo wouldn’t have done an about-face on that issue. Suddenly now, a closer is worth the money.

Secondly, I think (no disrespect intended) that you as a Red Sox fan, have a different notion of what constitutes success than me as a Yankee fan. I would not say the Sox in ’03 were successful. Statistically speaking, yes, the Sox had the number one offense in the majors. However, the Sox failed to win the division. The Sox failed to win the ALCS and only squeaked by on the skin of their teeth in the divisional series. Red Sox in ’03 are far from a validation of sabermetrics in regular season and tournament baseball. However, they were successful in energizing Red Sox Nation and getting fans to truly believe that they can win it all, which will go a long way towards that end.

Lastly, it is no secret where my loyalties lie. But I’m not the only partisan fan on this thread by far, I just don’t hide in fake concern for the well-being of my adversary. The Yankees are an impossible team to look at objectively. You, as a fan, are either for them or against them. No matter what anyone want to claim, that sentiment will always factor heavily into any discussion about this team. And by crocodile tears, I mean to challenge the sincerity of your concern for the NY Yankees’ defense. I didn’t mean to say that you were literally crying about this situation.

Ramble, I’m not going to sit quiet and let rival fans feel good about themselves while taking cheap shots at my team. One cheap shot deserves another. If you want this conversation out of the gutter then start with a topic that isn’t in the gutter to begin with, then you will stand a much greater chance of being objective.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:17 pm

OK, I hope this ends the "Jeter is clutch" debate forever, although I feel it won't.


Here are his career postseason stats in "clutch" situations:

Runners in scoring position: .210/.355/.306

Runners on base: .245/.345/.329


And here are his postseason stats (over the last four seasons, as the stats are unavailble for longer than that) in "close and late" situations, defined as "results in the 7th inning or later with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck," is:

.176/.263/.323

I tried to dig up these numbers myself, but I didn't have the time, and came across the source for this, at Aaron's baseball blog:
http://www.aarongleeman.com/2003_10_26_ ... 3513372636

Please, is Derek Jeter "clutch"? :-D You can argue that he is "sometimes" clutch, but he is in no way clutch. :-b
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Postby Transmogrifier » Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:23 pm

lesgrant wrote:
If you want to pick a legitimate issue about the ’04 Yanks, try talking about the starting rotation. Now there is where legitimate question marks arise that could actually have bearing on the outcome of the season. But of course, pursue this issue with the same standard you would apply to any other team. That’s objectivity.


This is a fantasy baseball forum; whether Jeter will eventually move to third has ENORMOUS implications on the upcoming season. Say I draft Arod first--I know he'll have both SS and 3rd eligibility; if I can snag Jeter later on, that flexibility will be great. This is a legitimate issue of fantasy baseball talk; that Pedro can't beat the Yankees matters very little in this forum.
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