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Postby AcidRock23 » Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:42 pm

I'm pretty keen on Zambrano, he's only likely to improve w/ age. Vis a vis Prior, I think that Prior is much bigger upside w/ somewhat higher risk of issues. Re 'too many pitches', I've never heard anything about Zambrano having problems w/ any part of his body other than his head/ mouth.

I have seen him left in games too long though, and go a bit nutty, eg when he fanned Pujols, got cocky and served up a homer to Rolen and then plunked Edmonds last year. While the K was great you could see that he got way too cocky from the (lack of) motion on the balls he was pitching to Rolen and it was as if another pitcher had taken the mound. While that WAS alarming as a Cubs' fan, I think his upside is > than his nutside and that he's a good option, goes a bit lower in drafts and gets more Ks than a lot of slider/ breaking ball sort of pitchers.
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Postby LBJackal » Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:07 pm

I like Zam, I think he'll post: 15-9, 3.09 ERA, 1.22 WHIP, 197 K's

That's definately worthy of being an ace.
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Postby jbones733 » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:48 pm

Zambrano - last 2 years -


13-11 214 ip , 168 k's - 3.11 era, 1.32 whip, .239 b.a.a

16-8 209 ip 188 k's - 2.75 era, 1.22 whip, .225 b.a.a

improved very nicely , is ONLY 23 ,

now Prior is a top talent of course & had that 1 phenomal season & very well could be back at it again, but he has that injury risk, if comes back healthy him & C Zam will be an amazing 1-2

Wood was also held in HIGH regards like Prior when he came out & now everyone hates him,, just saying i go by what i see & i dont see these kids in the minors , dont always go by the "scouts"

as for Sheets, he had 1 good year & hes 26 soon to be 27, i dont know how you can like him over Zambrano , id take Zambrano any day, plus he has emotioon, fire, guts, threw at a few people like some great uses to, still does, thats a factor initmidation.
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Postby JGreer » Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:12 pm

RugbyD wrote:
JGreer wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
JGreer wrote:So what you are saying is that "nasty stuff" makes you a better pitcher? "Nasty stuff" makes you deserve a rotation spot over a future hall of famer? I think not. Maddux has won 15 games or more for 17 straight years. Wood has never won 15 games. Maddux has a career ERA of 2.94. Wood's is 3.63. Maddux walks a guy every 4.8 innings. Wood walks a guy every 2 innings. Tell me, why should Wood be ahead of him in the rotation?


by this logic, Sosa should not have been moved out of the cleanup spot last year. Brilliant!


No, actually, different logic. Sosa was struggling last year. Maddux had another great year. Wood was broken again.


Just as Maddux is not a 2.94-200 player, Sammy is not a 290-50 player. Diminished skills are relevant and justify placing lower in the order/rotation.


First of all, I would argue that Maddux's skills have not diminished all that much. His pitching kept the cubs alive in the second half. Kerry Wood is nothing but hype. So he struck out 20 guys.......that was one game 7 years ago!!!! Wood had a losing record last year. Talk to me when he wins 20 games...........or even 15!!
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Postby AcidRock23 » Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:56 pm

jbones733 wrote: Wood was also held in HIGH regards like Prior when he came out & now everyone hates him,, just saying i go by what i see & i dont see these kids in the minors , dont always go by the "scouts"



I don't necessarily 'hate' Wood but I just don't look at him as being a good fantasy pick, particularly given that about 50% of our league (incl myself...) are gonzo Cubs fans so he may fly off in the 3rd or 4th round! When he's 'on', there are few who can compete w/ him.

Unfortunately, he seems to have some of the same issues that Zambrano has, questioning calls, getting cranky, walking guys and pitching kind of sloppy. Prior did NOT do that during the 2003 season and I am REALLY hoping for the Cubs' sake that he, Wood AND Zambrano can kind of relax more and pitch more smoothly.

I'm not sure that 'smallball' is the solution w/ the shaggy grass at Wrigley but if they are not involved in so many HORRID low scoring games offensively, start making contact and get some runs besides bombs onto Waveland (although Ramirez and Lee should do just fine for that...), I think that they could be a much more effective team this year. *fingers crossing*
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Postby RugbyD » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:01 am

JGreer wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
JGreer wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
JGreer wrote:So what you are saying is that "nasty stuff" makes you a better pitcher? "Nasty stuff" makes you deserve a rotation spot over a future hall of famer? I think not. Maddux has won 15 games or more for 17 straight years. Wood has never won 15 games. Maddux has a career ERA of 2.94. Wood's is 3.63. Maddux walks a guy every 4.8 innings. Wood walks a guy every 2 innings. Tell me, why should Wood be ahead of him in the rotation?


by this logic, Sosa should not have been moved out of the cleanup spot last year. Brilliant!


No, actually, different logic. Sosa was struggling last year. Maddux had another great year. Wood was broken again.


Just as Maddux is not a 2.94-200 player, Sammy is not a 290-50 player. Diminished skills are relevant and justify placing lower in the order/rotation.


First of all, I would argue that Maddux's skills have not diminished all that much. His pitching kept the cubs alive in the second half. Kerry Wood is nothing but hype. So he struck out 20 guys.......that was one game 7 years ago!!!! Wood had a losing record last year. Talk to me when he wins 20 games...........or even 15!!


ok, so what am i missing here?: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/3933/career

should we ignore ERA? HR? BAA? H/IP?
it is common knowledge that W is an inadequate tool for pitcher evaluation. Wood does not have it all together, but the risk/reward is definitely better than maddux.
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Postby looptid » Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:01 am

jbones733 wrote:as for Sheets, he had 1 good year & hes 26 soon to be 27, i dont know how you can like him over Zambrano , id take Zambrano any day, plus he has emotioon, fire, guts, threw at a few people like some great uses to, still does, thats a factor initmidation.


I believe it was the Harball Times that did an article the included the best K/BB seasons of all time adjusted for era, and Sheets' 2004 made the top ten. That's Walter Johnson, Pedro Martinez at their peak type company.

Zambrano is an inefficient pitcher. He didn't even post a 2.5 K/BB last season. I can overlook the fact that Sheets has only "done it" for one season, because there is no way I could concieve a pitcher lucking into hammering the strikezone for 237 innings and inspite of that, hitters not being able to make contact.

237 IP, 32 BB, 264 K !?!

That isn't to say Zambrano won't continue to improve or that he isn't a fantastic pitcher that would be the ace on a large number of teams, but Sheets' 2004 puts him into the elite level of pitchers (Santana, Johnson).
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Postby JGreer » Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:13 am

RugbyD wrote:
JGreer wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
JGreer wrote:
RugbyD wrote:
JGreer wrote:So what you are saying is that "nasty stuff" makes you a better pitcher? "Nasty stuff" makes you deserve a rotation spot over a future hall of famer? I think not. Maddux has won 15 games or more for 17 straight years. Wood has never won 15 games. Maddux has a career ERA of 2.94. Wood's is 3.63. Maddux walks a guy every 4.8 innings. Wood walks a guy every 2 innings. Tell me, why should Wood be ahead of him in the rotation?


by this logic, Sosa should not have been moved out of the cleanup spot last year. Brilliant!


No, actually, different logic. Sosa was struggling last year. Maddux had another great year. Wood was broken again.


Just as Maddux is not a 2.94-200 player, Sammy is not a 290-50 player. Diminished skills are relevant and justify placing lower in the order/rotation.


First of all, I would argue that Maddux's skills have not diminished all that much. His pitching kept the cubs alive in the second half. Kerry Wood is nothing but hype. So he struck out 20 guys.......that was one game 7 years ago!!!! Wood had a losing record last year. Talk to me when he wins 20 games...........or even 15!!


ok, so what am i missing here?: http://sports.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/3933/career

should we ignore ERA? HR? BAA? H/IP?
it is common knowledge that W is an inadequate tool for pitcher evaluation. Wood does not have it all together, but the risk/reward is definitely better than maddux.


If the debate was who is worth a higher draft choice in a fantasy league, i would not be arguing with you. But we are talking about who should be higher in the rotation. If baseball was a game with rules that said whoever strikes out the most batters wins, then Wood would be one of the best pitchers in baseball. Unfortunately for Kerry, it's not. Kerry Wood has accomplished nothing but cubby hype in his career. To have him before Maddux in the rotation is a travesty.
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Postby jetlag » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:56 am

JGreer wrote: To have him before Maddux in the rotation is a travesty.


But, would you say its a travesty of a mockery of a sham? :-]
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Postby AcidRock23 » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:00 pm

Given Maddux enormous mojo, and Baker's player friendly demeanor, I have to suspect that they asked Maddux where he'd like to be in the rotation not 'Greg, we have you projected lower than Wood so you are taking the #3 or #4 spot'
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