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Mark - I did not use steroids or any other illegal substance

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Postby LBJackal » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:10 pm

Well some people will be racist no matter what, in every situation. I'm sure there are lots of people who think Bonds is innocent based on race (Look at the OJ case... a huge majority of the country believes he was guilty, while blacks voted in significantly higher amounts saying OJ was innocent). So yes, racism exists, that's obvious. But it's not the reason Bonds gets a bad rap, and it's not the reason McGwire doesn't. If McGwire was an asshole and was a BACLO client he'd be crucified the same way Bonds is. And if Bonds had been kind to the media and NOT been associated with BALCO, not had Sheff claim they did roids together, not have a huge HR spurt in his late 30's, he woudln't be crucified. So to blame his situation on race, which is exactly what wrveres is doing, is completely off base.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:20 pm

lesgrant wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:lesgrant, I'm trying to figure out what your point is.

You say:

there is a double standard with respects to how the media and public are processing this story


but then you say:

Mac was a huge a**hole to the media. He was commonly viewed as uncooperative.


did you get this info from the media or from personal experience? If you got this info from media coverage, how can you say that the media is soft on McGwire.

I also got the impression from media coverage that Mac was a meathead jerk. I also got the distinct impression that the media and the public in general was rooting for Sosa to beat Mac in the HR race.

It's hard to decipher what your point is - without the ranting can you summarize it?


My point to Jackal was that the media has made a bigger issue out of Bonds’ lack of cooperation than Maguire’s. As such, the average fan is not as likely to identify Maguire as an equal a++hole to Bonds. The end result is that the media will dig deeper and more aggressively for stuff on Bonds than Maguire. That’s the double standard.

That double standard has no bearing on actual guilt or innocence in this case, merely the public perception of it. Bonds used ‘roids and so did Maguire, IMO.

And I also want to stress that the race issue is not the catalyst for Bonds’ troubles, it merely piles them on. MM does not have that problem.

And in terms of your point regarding where I got the impression, it came from my observations of the media coverage, including, editorializing by interviewers, the types of leading questions posed, the inclusion of certain gestures and grimaces, etc.

While I’ve never worked for the Cards or A’s, I have done publicity for pro sports teams and I do know, firsthand, the BS that ends up on the cutting room floor. I’ve seen raw feeds of interviews before viewing the aired footage. Journalists inject their opinions into stories not with what they include, but with what they exclude. And it happens without exception.

That’s why I tend to scoff at individuals who will proclaim that they know what the story ISN’T about – especially when it comes to race in this country.


I've never worked in the media but I have worked with them. So, while I don't know what ends up on the cutting room floor in sports interviews, I do know that journalists usually come up with a story and then try to come up with the soundbite or quote to support their story. A generalization to be sure but it's my opinion gathered through experience.

As for the double standard, there is a backlash in the media and the public in general against Barry and, while race certainly plays a part in it, it is mostly the old addage "what comes around goes around" working against Barry. Journalists are poor petty people rubbing shoulders with larger than life millionaires. They wield their power to get back at the people whom they feel have slighted them.

As for the double standard. Sure Mac had the big year but he is miniscule compared to Barry. Barry has the single season HR record, he will get the career HR record and he dwarfs McGwire's stats. McGwire is borderline HOF and by the grey ink standard is well below the average HOFer. Bonds should get more attention because he is the most important player in the game since Pete Rose.

Who really cares about Mac? He is a baseball footnote who is best forgotten.
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Postby grammysboy » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:58 pm

Alright, I read through the post in this thread and have decided to weigh in with my own opinions.

I heard Brian McRay, former Royal OF on a radio interview recently saying the use of steroids was more prevalent in the minors than in the majors. Does the new policy apply to minor league players too?

1. I'd say there is a strong probability that both Bonds and McGwire were roid users.

2. Barry has persisted in being less than friendly with the press and therefore has received many negative articles about his attitude.

3. There are some who want to make everything into a "race" issue. Unlike most of the people I talk to, I really don't feel comfortable saying OJ did it. Had I been on the jury I would probably voted to acquitt.

4. My 16 year-old son has begged to be allowed to take Creatin so he can get bigger to play football. To this point we have refused. As parents we don't want him taking anything that "long-term" effects are not known about.

5. I don't appreciate top-level athletes using any form of performance enhancing substance because, contrary to what Charles Barkley says, those guys are role models.

5. I was disappointed in MM when the story broke about him using a "legal" substance. That kind of stuff just makes it harder to be a parent.

6. I'm for a zero-tolerance position on the issue. The only way to really ever make them stop is to make the fines large enough that it really hurts. $1 million for the first offense and double for every subsequent positive test.

7. I'm for putting an * by all their names in the record books if there is any suspicion they were using anything - period.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:15 pm

Seriously, stop playing the race card. And stop cherrypicking evidence. How is McGwire getting bigger any different from Bonds going from a 30/40-40/40 guy to a 70 HR monster in the past decade? Plus, theres no drug company connection, no leaked testimony, etc. Its not about race. Its about how much evidence has piled up on this guy. I am almost sure Barry Bonds took steroids. I'm fairly sure that McGwire did too, but Bonds just has too much evidence against him to doubt that he took steroids. If you want to push your race cards and "the testimony is a lie" garbage, go right ahead.
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Postby lesgrant » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:36 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:Seriously, stop playing the race card. And stop cherrypicking evidence. How is McGwire getting bigger any different from Bonds going from a 30/40-40/40 guy to a 70 HR monster in the past decade? Plus, theres no drug company connection, no leaked testimony, etc. Its not about race. Its about how much evidence has piled up on this guy. I am almost sure Barry Bonds took steroids. I'm fairly sure that McGwire did too, but Bonds just has too much evidence against him to doubt that he took steroids. If you want to push your race cards and "the testimony is a lie" garbage, go right ahead.


I’m asking you out of curiosity and do not mean to single you out.

Why do you use the term “playing the race card”? I have always been puzzled by this term in that it likens complaints about racism to a game where complaining about racism somehow guarantees some sort of automatic victory - like playing a trump card.

Do you really think complaining about being a victim of discrimination in our society is a game? Do you think somehow blacks in America are “playing the race card” to get ahead? If so, how have blacks benefited from their race in this country? I’m sorry, I don’t see it.

Again, I don’t mean to single you out because it’s been used by countless people in countless situations – even by multiple users on this thread. Its usage seems to be an attempt to lessen the validity of claims of racism.

Then, to your point, why can’t it be about the evidence AND race, why do you have to make it an either or scenario? It seems many think that if it’s about race, it can’t be about anything else.

I’m not sure if you’re accusing me of “playing the race card” or vr or both. But I’ve made myself clear as to how race impacts this issue. My position is different from vr’s. If you think that’s playing the race card, then we, as a society, truly do have a long way to go.
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Postby nsulham » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:39 pm

Excuse my ignorance on all things Bonds as I tend to stay away from those threads because I'm not as fervent about the issue as some.

With that said, WR, what are you looking for as far as proof that Barry took steroids goes? A personal admittance? Like IF Barry took steroids and admitted it in front of the world, is that the only way you'd accept it?

Or if hard-line evidence came out that undeniably linked him to steroid use, but he continued to deny it, would you still believe him?

I'm not going anywhere with the question and I honestly don't have an ulterior motive or anything, just curious what it'd take for the pro-Barry people on this forum to believe 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, that Barry took steroids, IF he did.

Thanks.
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Postby LBJackal » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:52 pm

Playing the race card to me, is using race as an excuse when it isn't a factor in something. Bonds gets lambasted by the media - oh it's because he's black. That's playing the race card. I didn't get this job which I'm not qualified for, but a white guy whose more qualified did. You hate me because I'm black. That's playing the race card. Yeah, it gets overused by some people, and yeah blacks and other minorities DO have reason to complain in some situations.
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Postby sappisgod » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:53 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:Seriously, stop playing the race card. And stop cherrypicking evidence. How is McGwire getting bigger any different from Bonds going from a 30/40-40/40 guy to a 70 HR monster in the past decade? Plus, theres no drug company connection, no leaked testimony, etc. Its not about race. Its about how much evidence has piled up on this guy. I am almost sure Barry Bonds took steroids. I'm fairly sure that McGwire did too, but Bonds just has too much evidence against him to doubt that he took steroids. If you want to push your race cards and "the testimony is a lie" garbage, go right ahead.


Agreed. it's clear this guy is trying too hard to make something about race that isn't about race. Take Chad Pennington this year for instance, he chewed out the media(and had a point!), explained why he felt the way he did, and had the background of majoring in Journalism at Marshall. Oh yeah, and he's white. Yet he was eaten alive by the NY media. Also, many articles and sports talk shows showed the clip or quoted him saying it's a privledge to cover the NY Jets, yet didn't show/quote where he said it was a privledge for him to play for the Jets. That's blatant discrimination against Pennington because he's white. :~(

The media picking and choosing what they report on and the creative editing has been a staple in the sports media for a while. It makes more sense when you look at the fact that Bonds avoids the media. They don't like that. Of course they're not going to show him in a favorable light. It's NOT a black/white issue, so quit trying to make it one. It's just sad. It makes sense that some fans are still defending McGwire because the first thing they remember about him is that he saved baseball w/the HR chase. Of course when someone is involved in something like that, people are going to be niave about it and give him the benefit of the doubt. Back in 98, steroids weren't the main issue in baseball. They were an issue, but were nothing compared to the explosion of steroid accusations/stories in the past couple of years.
Last edited by sappisgod on Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sappisgod » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:57 pm

LBJackal wrote:Playing the race card to me, is using race as an excuse when it isn't a factor in something. Bonds gets lambasted by the media - oh it's because he's black. That's playing the race card. I didn't get this job which I'm not qualified for, but a white guy whose more qualified did. You hate me because I'm black. That's playing the race card. Yeah, it gets overused by some people, and yeah blacks and other minorities DO have reason to complain in some situations.


I agree. There's some situations where race comes up and there IS a point. Such as black coaches in NCAA football. Then there are cases where people just bring it up with little-no reason behind them. This, unfortunately, is the latter.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:44 pm

lesgrant wrote:
CubsFan7724 wrote:Seriously, stop playing the race card. And stop cherrypicking evidence. How is McGwire getting bigger any different from Bonds going from a 30/40-40/40 guy to a 70 HR monster in the past decade? Plus, theres no drug company connection, no leaked testimony, etc. Its not about race. Its about how much evidence has piled up on this guy. I am almost sure Barry Bonds took steroids. I'm fairly sure that McGwire did too, but Bonds just has too much evidence against him to doubt that he took steroids. If you want to push your race cards and "the testimony is a lie" garbage, go right ahead.


I’m asking you out of curiosity and do not mean to single you out.

Why do you use the term “playing the race card”? I have always been puzzled by this term in that it likens complaints about racism to a game where complaining about racism somehow guarantees some sort of automatic victory - like playing a trump card.

Do you really think complaining about being a victim of discrimination in our society is a game? Do you think somehow blacks in America are “playing the race card” to get ahead? If so, how have blacks benefited from their race in this country? I’m sorry, I don’t see it.

Again, I don’t mean to single you out because it’s been used by countless people in countless situations – even by multiple users on this thread. Its usage seems to be an attempt to lessen the validity of claims of racism.

Then, to your point, why can’t it be about the evidence AND race, why do you have to make it an either or scenario? It seems many think that if it’s about race, it can’t be about anything else.

I’m not sure if you’re accusing me of “playing the race card” or vr or both. But I’ve made myself clear as to how race impacts this issue. My position is different from vr’s. If you think that’s playing the race card, then we, as a society, truly do have a long way to go.
No, its that Wrveres acts like its the only reason and the fact is that Barry Bonds has been a jerk and will never stop being a jerk to the media. McGwire was a jerk too, but during the 98 home run chase he (and his publicists) saw he couldn't keep acting like this and told him to straighten up. He did. Bonds hasnt. The reason I say hes playing the race card is that he is trying to make that the reason why he is hated so much and that is clearly not why. African americans journalists hate him too. Are they racist?
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