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Postby Nomar4prez » Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:48 am

lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:I don't understand why you use $120 million as your benchmark? You do know that there is a team in the MLB that spends over $180 million and may top $200 million in the next few years, right? Do you want to know how to lower the Sox's payroll? Lower the Yankees payroll. That's the only reason we have a $120 million payroll. We HAVE to have that high of a payroll or we won't compete with the Yankees every year.

Every Sox fan I have talked to (and I have talked to MANY!) would love a salary cap and would gladly embrace it.


Sure, blame it on the Yankees!

It’s Steinbrenner’s fault that you lose and it’s his fault you win.

Get a new song to sing already. It’s really tired. You pierced the luxury tax threshold and bought a championship, just like you accuse the Yankees of doing.

Are you less of a murder because you stab your victim once as opposed to three times? You are a big spender and you owe everything you are enjoying about your championship to $$$$$. Get over it and stop being a hypocrite.


And WHY do we spend so much? B/c we have to contend with the Yankees each year. If we were in a different division, I highly doubt our payroll would be much over $100 million. And NO, we don't owe everything we are enjoying to money, b/c if money was the only thing that made teams win, then the Yankees would win every year.
And where in my previous post did I say we didn't spend alot of money? We did, but if people want the Sox to lower their payroll, then the simple way is to either have the Yankees lower theirs, or move us to another division. Do people expect the Sox to just only spend $60 million and continously lose to the Yankees? Hell, we've been spending $100 million and we were still continously losing to the Yankees. This is the first year we've exceeded the $120 million mark and now we're to blame for all of baseball's troubles?
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Postby Transmogrifier » Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:29 pm

I have to ask: What constitutes "buying a championship"? If we can do this without some team bashing, I'd appreciate it.

Is it simply big contracts?--The Cardinals, from these figures ( http://www.onestopbaseball.com/TeamPayroll.asp ) in April--had the ninth highest payroll last year. If they won, would they have bought it? Or not because they were facing a team with a higher payroll? IF they played the A's, and won, would the Cards have "bought it".



Or is it some unknown combination of signing free agents? Or giving big contracts out--a la Pujols and Rolen?

Seems to me people like to throw this label around and I'm not sure what it means.

Can only those going over the luxury tax "buy" a championship?

Anyway, this is silly.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Dec 30, 2004 2:54 pm

Nomar4prez wrote:
lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:I don't understand why you use $120 million as your benchmark? You do know that there is a team in the MLB that spends over $180 million and may top $200 million in the next few years, right? Do you want to know how to lower the Sox's payroll? Lower the Yankees payroll. That's the only reason we have a $120 million payroll. We HAVE to have that high of a payroll or we won't compete with the Yankees every year.

Every Sox fan I have talked to (and I have talked to MANY!) would love a salary cap and would gladly embrace it.


Sure, blame it on the Yankees!

It’s Steinbrenner’s fault that you lose and it’s his fault you win.

Get a new song to sing already. It’s really tired. You pierced the luxury tax threshold and bought a championship, just like you accuse the Yankees of doing.

Are you less of a murder because you stab your victim once as opposed to three times? You are a big spender and you owe everything you are enjoying about your championship to $$$$$. Get over it and stop being a hypocrite.


And WHY do we spend so much? B/c we have to contend with the Yankees each year. If we were in a different division, I highly doubt our payroll would be much over $100 million. And NO, we don't owe everything we are enjoying to money, b/c if money was the only thing that made teams win, then the Yankees would win every year.
And where in my previous post did I say we didn't spend alot of money? We did, but if people want the Sox to lower their payroll, then the simple way is to either have the Yankees lower theirs, or move us to another division. Do people expect the Sox to just only spend $60 million and continously lose to the Yankees? Hell, we've been spending $100 million and we were still continously losing to the Yankees. This is the first year we've exceeded the $120 million mark and now we're to blame for all of baseball's troubles?


Once again a Red Sox fan cannot justify spending money without dragging the Yankees into it.

Why can't you just say,'Yeah, we spent the money, we won, so what?'

You're still trying to cling to that David vs. Goliath / Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader identity that you all have constructed for yourselves.

Give it up. You look silly.
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Postby Nomar4prez » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:04 pm

lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:
lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:I don't understand why you use $120 million as your benchmark? You do know that there is a team in the MLB that spends over $180 million and may top $200 million in the next few years, right? Do you want to know how to lower the Sox's payroll? Lower the Yankees payroll. That's the only reason we have a $120 million payroll. We HAVE to have that high of a payroll or we won't compete with the Yankees every year.

Every Sox fan I have talked to (and I have talked to MANY!) would love a salary cap and would gladly embrace it.


Sure, blame it on the Yankees!

It’s Steinbrenner’s fault that you lose and it’s his fault you win.

Get a new song to sing already. It’s really tired. You pierced the luxury tax threshold and bought a championship, just like you accuse the Yankees of doing.

Are you less of a murder because you stab your victim once as opposed to three times? You are a big spender and you owe everything you are enjoying about your championship to $$$$$. Get over it and stop being a hypocrite.


And WHY do we spend so much? B/c we have to contend with the Yankees each year. If we were in a different division, I highly doubt our payroll would be much over $100 million. And NO, we don't owe everything we are enjoying to money, b/c if money was the only thing that made teams win, then the Yankees would win every year.
And where in my previous post did I say we didn't spend alot of money? We did, but if people want the Sox to lower their payroll, then the simple way is to either have the Yankees lower theirs, or move us to another division. Do people expect the Sox to just only spend $60 million and continously lose to the Yankees? Hell, we've been spending $100 million and we were still continously losing to the Yankees. This is the first year we've exceeded the $120 million mark and now we're to blame for all of baseball's troubles?


Once again a Red Sox fan cannot justify spending money without dragging the Yankees into it.

Why can't you just say,'Yeah, we spent the money, we won, so what?'

You're still trying to cling to that David vs. Goliath / Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader identity that you all have constructed for yourselves.

Give it up. You look silly.


Where did I say David vs. Goliath? Where did I say we were the underdogs? I'd really like to know b/c thats not at all what I said.

I am not upset that the Red Sox spent $120 million. In order to compete with the Yankees we HAVE to spend that much. Does that mean we're David and your Goliath? NO! It means with a $100 million payroll, we would not of won this year. We might of still been able to beat the Cardinals, but there is no way we could have got past the Yankees in the postseason. We're not spending $120 million to win a World Series, we're spending $120 million to beat the Yankees. IF the Yankees didn't have a payroll exceeding $180 million, the Sox would not be spending $120 million, thats the simple truth. Am I saying the Yankees are the bad guys? NO! I'm saying the Yankees are why we have such a high payroll. It's not rocket science.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:24 pm

Nomar4prez wrote:
lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:
lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:I don't understand why you use $120 million as your benchmark? You do know that there is a team in the MLB that spends over $180 million and may top $200 million in the next few years, right? Do you want to know how to lower the Sox's payroll? Lower the Yankees payroll. That's the only reason we have a $120 million payroll. We HAVE to have that high of a payroll or we won't compete with the Yankees every year.

Every Sox fan I have talked to (and I have talked to MANY!) would love a salary cap and would gladly embrace it.


Sure, blame it on the Yankees!

It’s Steinbrenner’s fault that you lose and it’s his fault you win.

Get a new song to sing already. It’s really tired. You pierced the luxury tax threshold and bought a championship, just like you accuse the Yankees of doing.

Are you less of a murder because you stab your victim once as opposed to three times? You are a big spender and you owe everything you are enjoying about your championship to $$$$$. Get over it and stop being a hypocrite.


And WHY do we spend so much? B/c we have to contend with the Yankees each year. If we were in a different division, I highly doubt our payroll would be much over $100 million. And NO, we don't owe everything we are enjoying to money, b/c if money was the only thing that made teams win, then the Yankees would win every year.
And where in my previous post did I say we didn't spend alot of money? We did, but if people want the Sox to lower their payroll, then the simple way is to either have the Yankees lower theirs, or move us to another division. Do people expect the Sox to just only spend $60 million and continously lose to the Yankees? Hell, we've been spending $100 million and we were still continously losing to the Yankees. This is the first year we've exceeded the $120 million mark and now we're to blame for all of baseball's troubles?


Once again a Red Sox fan cannot justify spending money without dragging the Yankees into it.

Why can't you just say,'Yeah, we spent the money, we won, so what?'

You're still trying to cling to that David vs. Goliath / Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader identity that you all have constructed for yourselves.

Give it up. You look silly.


Where did I say David vs. Goliath? Where did I say we were the underdogs? I'd really like to know b/c thats not at all what I said.

I am not upset that the Red Sox spent $120 million. In order to compete with the Yankees we HAVE to spend that much. Does that mean we're David and your Goliath? NO! It means with a $100 million payroll, we would not of won this year. We might of still been able to beat the Cardinals, but there is no way we could have got past the Yankees in the postseason. We're not spending $120 million to win a World Series, we're spending $120 million to beat the Yankees. IF the Yankees didn't have a payroll exceeding $180 million, the Sox would not be spending $120 million, thats the simple truth. Am I saying the Yankees are the bad guys? NO! I'm saying the Yankees are why we have such a high payroll. It's not rocket science.


I stand by the first sentence of my last post:

Once again a Red Sox fan cannot justify spending money without dragging the Yankees into it.

Your response only underscores my contention.

Furthermore, you mentioned something about competing with the Yankees in the AL East. In actuality, given that you have not won the AL East during the recent arms race, you spent $120 million to win the wild card, not the division. Don't use Yankee spending to justify Red Sox expenditures when you were really going head to head with the likes of Anaheim and Texas for a wild card spot. You were only in contention for the division for about a week in September after going on an unreal winning stretch in August.

You also said on one hand 'And NO, we don't owe everything we are enjoying to money' but on the other you say 'It means with a $100 million payroll, we would not of won this year.'

So you don' t owe your championship to money, but you had to spend that money to win a championship?

Which is it?
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Postby Nomar4prez » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:45 pm

lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:
lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:
lesgrant wrote:
Nomar4prez wrote:I don't understand why you use $120 million as your benchmark? You do know that there is a team in the MLB that spends over $180 million and may top $200 million in the next few years, right? Do you want to know how to lower the Sox's payroll? Lower the Yankees payroll. That's the only reason we have a $120 million payroll. We HAVE to have that high of a payroll or we won't compete with the Yankees every year.

Every Sox fan I have talked to (and I have talked to MANY!) would love a salary cap and would gladly embrace it.


Sure, blame it on the Yankees!

It’s Steinbrenner’s fault that you lose and it’s his fault you win.

Get a new song to sing already. It’s really tired. You pierced the luxury tax threshold and bought a championship, just like you accuse the Yankees of doing.

Are you less of a murder because you stab your victim once as opposed to three times? You are a big spender and you owe everything you are enjoying about your championship to $$$$$. Get over it and stop being a hypocrite.


And WHY do we spend so much? B/c we have to contend with the Yankees each year. If we were in a different division, I highly doubt our payroll would be much over $100 million. And NO, we don't owe everything we are enjoying to money, b/c if money was the only thing that made teams win, then the Yankees would win every year.
And where in my previous post did I say we didn't spend alot of money? We did, but if people want the Sox to lower their payroll, then the simple way is to either have the Yankees lower theirs, or move us to another division. Do people expect the Sox to just only spend $60 million and continously lose to the Yankees? Hell, we've been spending $100 million and we were still continously losing to the Yankees. This is the first year we've exceeded the $120 million mark and now we're to blame for all of baseball's troubles?


Once again a Red Sox fan cannot justify spending money without dragging the Yankees into it.

Why can't you just say,'Yeah, we spent the money, we won, so what?'

You're still trying to cling to that David vs. Goliath / Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader identity that you all have constructed for yourselves.

Give it up. You look silly.


Where did I say David vs. Goliath? Where did I say we were the underdogs? I'd really like to know b/c thats not at all what I said.

I am not upset that the Red Sox spent $120 million. In order to compete with the Yankees we HAVE to spend that much. Does that mean we're David and your Goliath? NO! It means with a $100 million payroll, we would not of won this year. We might of still been able to beat the Cardinals, but there is no way we could have got past the Yankees in the postseason. We're not spending $120 million to win a World Series, we're spending $120 million to beat the Yankees. IF the Yankees didn't have a payroll exceeding $180 million, the Sox would not be spending $120 million, thats the simple truth. Am I saying the Yankees are the bad guys? NO! I'm saying the Yankees are why we have such a high payroll. It's not rocket science.


I stand by the first sentence of my last post:

Once again a Red Sox fan cannot justify spending money without dragging the Yankees into it.

Your response only underscores my contention.

Furthermore, you mentioned something about competing with the Yankees in the AL East. In actuality, given that you have not won the AL East during the recent arms race, you spent $120 million to win the wild card, not the division. Don't use Yankee spending to justify Red Sox expenditures when you were really going head to head with the likes of Anaheim and Texas for a wild card spot. You were only in contention for the division for about a week in September after going on an unreal winning stretch in August.

You also said on one hand 'And NO, we don't owe everything we are enjoying to money' but on the other you say 'It means with a $100 million payroll, we would not of won this year.'

So you don' t owe your championship to money, but you had to spend that money to win a championship?

Which is it?


We didn't spend $120 million to win the Al East, we spend that much to beat the Yankees. There is a VERY high probability that if you want to go to the World Series, you have to go through New York. Even if we won the Al East, we'd still probably have to face New York. And we don't owe everything to money. If money was everything, then obviously the Yankees would win every year. We could of won the World Series with less than a $100 million payroll, but we could not of beat the Yankees.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:04 pm

Nomar4prez wrote:We didn't spend $120 million to win the Al East, we spend that much to beat the Yankees. There is a VERY high probability that if you want to go to the World Series, you have to go through New York. Even if we won the Al East, we'd still probably have to face New York. And we don't owe everything to money. If money was everything, then obviously the Yankees would win every year. We could of won the World Series with less than a $100 million payroll, but we could not of beat the Yankees.


Again, you say on one hand 'we don't owe everything to money' but then say you would not have beaten the Yankees. So, does that mean that you were happy with the results of '03?

I'm going out on limb and saying 'no'.

So, if that's true, then your happiness (at winning your first championship in a long time) can be attributed to speding money. Because, as you say, not spending the money would mean that you wouldn't beat the Yanks in the championship round.

Again, you don't owe it all to money, but without spending the money you spent, you wouldn't have won it all.

Which is it? As you are going around in circles, you are proving my point: that some Red Sox fans can't come to grips with the fact that they are big spenders and that spending is why you won a championship.
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Postby Transmogrifier » Thu Dec 30, 2004 6:10 pm

lesgrant, you are running in circles yourself. You admit that it wasn't all about money, yet are trying to make him say that he's happy only because of the money.

I think we won partly because of money, partly because of a ton of other things.

Because I think money played a role, that does not mean I think that spending is the reason the Sox won a championship. It's a reason, but not the reason.
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Postby lesgrant » Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:51 am

Transmogrifier wrote:lesgrant, you are running in circles yourself. You admit that it wasn't all about money, yet are trying to make him say that he's happy only because of the money.

I think we won partly because of money, partly because of a ton of other things.

Because I think money played a role, that does not mean I think that spending is the reason the Sox won a championship. It's a reason, but not the reason.


I didn't make any direct assertion either way. I was summarizing nomar's two coflicting statements.

My personal belief is that it takes money to be competitive and the Sox spent what it took to win a series, which was also above the luxury tax threshold. For the Sox in '04, money made the difference. I feel you owe it all to a configuration of expensive free agents - the exact same thing most Red Sox fans have always attributed to the Yankees. In short, Sox fans have become the very thing they've stood against.

And, for the most part, Sox fans just can't come to grips with losing the underdog, blue collar, good guy, Luke Skywalker, David type of identity which has been fueled by front office propaganda.

Who called the Yanks the Evil Empire?
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