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How about some criticism of Beane?

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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:24 pm

RugbyD wrote:WS Championships don't say squat about a GM. Playoffs are won on the front line, not in the front office. The fact is that so far he's done far more with far less than most. If Swisher or Blanton or someone fizzles there will be plenty of people saying 'I told you so', which is pure ignorance. Nobody bats 1.000, let alone .500. He steps into a poker game with $10 to everyone else's $20, $50, or $100 and walks out with a higher percentage gain than everyone else. That is what a GM should be judged by.
So what if hes competitive with a smaller payroll? All that is is economics. Fans don't want mildly competitive, they want championships and it probably won't happen in Oakland as long as they cut stars loose and try to go with bargain bin players. Hey, Beane's a good businessman. Good for him. Guess what, fans don't care about the bottom line. They want championships. I'm glad in Chicago they are willing to spend money to try and get to a championship, because its been friggin long enough. Beane is a good general manager, but he isn't the god among men that people make him out to be.
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Postby RugbyD » Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:21 pm

CubsFan772 wrote:Guess what, fans don't care about the bottom line. They want championships. I'm glad in Chicago they are willing to spend money to try and get to a championship, because its been friggin long enough. Beane is a good general manager, but he isn't the god among men that people make him out to be.


You are proving my point for me. You imply that championships are a function of money. That's an ownership issue, not a GM issue. I seriously hope you'd prefer Beane running our team than Hendry. Jimbo's not bad, but he apparently only knows how to put together names and not cohesive winning unit.

Ryan has also had the small luxury of playing in a relatively subpar division, but he has done well after several years of learning on the job.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:31 pm

Hendry gives a better chance of winning than Beane. Imagine, with Beane, you wouldnt have Derek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Wood, and the only good thing, Sosa. Hendrys teams have gotten further and have a better chance of winning than Beanes.
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Postby FatGuyWithAMullet » Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:48 pm

The closed mindedness of some of you junior statisticians is quite infuriating, and yes I'm looking in your direction LBJackal. Some day you'll hopefully learn that your own eyes are capable of providing a unique perspective on this game that stats will never be able to furnish.

Despite what you may think about me and my views on statistics - I actually like them quite a bit. What I really don't like is people like you who believe that they are the only acceptable language of baseball fans.

If you would like to continue this futile debate feel free to PM me, but I feel it's pointless to continue it here where my viewpoints are outnumbered 1000 to 1 - I prefer a level playing field.
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Postby Bloody Nipples » Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:22 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:Hendry gives a better chance of winning than Beane. Imagine, with Beane, you wouldnt have Derek Lee, Aramis Ramirez, Wood, and the only good thing, Sosa. Hendrys teams have gotten further and have a better chance of winning than Beanes.


I am not a Beane-lover (which may be out of envy), but I dont hate him either. Even so, I have to disagree with your point here. Beane uses his current philosophy because he has to. I guaruntee that if A's ownership told him they could resign Mulder and Hudson, he would not have traded them. He only makes low-budget moves because he works with a low-budget. I believe that if he was in Chicago, working with a higher budget, he wouldnt make the same type of moves he makes in Oakland. He would, however, go after the same type of player (i.e. good obp hitters) as he does now. I would bet good money that, given a larger budget, Beane's teams could do some serious damage in the playoffs.

(TANGENT: part of the reason I think Beane's A's teams dont do so well in the playoffs is because of the turnover in the system. Few players in any give year have playoff experience, so the A's lack leadership and experience in the playoffs.)

Try this in your mind: put Hendry in low-budget Oakland, and see how he does. I would guess a lot worse than Beane. If he brings in the players you mentioned, he would have zero money left to spend on the rest of the team. Thats the dilemma Beane faces, and overcomes.
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Postby GSes » Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:22 pm

CubsFan7724 wrote:
RugbyD wrote:WS Championships don't say squat about a GM. Playoffs are won on the front line, not in the front office. The fact is that so far he's done far more with far less than most. If Swisher or Blanton or someone fizzles there will be plenty of people saying 'I told you so', which is pure ignorance. Nobody bats 1.000, let alone .500. He steps into a poker game with $10 to everyone else's $20, $50, or $100 and walks out with a higher percentage gain than everyone else. That is what a GM should be judged by.
So what if hes competitive with a smaller payroll? All that is is economics. Fans don't want mildly competitive, they want championships and it probably won't happen in Oakland as long as they cut stars loose and try to go with bargain bin players. Hey, Beane's a good businessman. Good for him. Guess what, fans don't care about the bottom line. They want championships. I'm glad in Chicago they are willing to spend money to try and get to a championship, because its been friggin long enough. Beane is a good general manager, but he isn't the god among men that people make him out to be.


that is one of the most un-intelligent things I have ever read

What part of Billy does not have money to spend do you not understand?

Its not his fault he is on a ridiculous tight budget? Im pretty sure he would love for A's owners to tell him here is 300 million to spend on talent, go do it. NO. He is given 60 million per year

the yankees bullpen makes 65 million per year.

You think that all the other gm's could win year end and year out like Billy does with such a small budget? I don't think so b/c no one else has done it yet.
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Postby RugbyD » Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:49 pm

Nips, you took the words right out of my mouth. Thanks for saving some typing for me. CubsFan, you sound like one of the guys my WSox friends keep ragging on me about.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:03 pm

Sorry, Im still angry over the whole Cubs thing this season. But you have to understand, being a Cubs fan, we wouldn't accept competitive. Yeah, its great that he can be good with a low payroll, but it doesn't bring championships, does it? Look at a team who uses a similar system, the red sox. They won, but they had to spend money. The system works, but not on a tightwad budget. And how come it doesn't work for the Blue Jays? It just seems like whats happened in Oakland has been a fluke in that he was able to draft Hudson, Mulder and Zito. We'll see this year what Oakland does without the first 2.
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Postby Bloody Nipples » Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:48 pm

I think you are mistaking Beane for "the system." They are not one in the same. Yes, Beane uses the moneyball "system," but that system requires evaluation of talent, which is a variable talent. Beane happens to be very good at evuating talent, so he gets good players. Maybe the bluejays' gm isnt as good at that, so he doesnt get the same calliber players. And the Red Sox method is very different from Beane's, just based on the fact that they have twice as much money to spend each year.

And for cubs fans, you have accepted competitive. Every year you are competitive, but you never win. And you have accepted that, or else the Chicago fan base would have driven the Cubs out a long time ago.
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Postby willieroe » Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:09 pm

Bloody Nipples wrote:And for cubs fans, you have accepted competitive. Every year you are competitive, but you never win. And you have accepted that, or else the Chicago fan base would have driven the Cubs out a long time ago.


BUZZ! Wrong answer!

2003-2004 was the first time the Cubs have completed back-to-back winning seasons since the early 1970s. The Cubs fan base accepts mediocrity because (1) hey, it's beautiful Wrigley Field, one of the best ballparks in the nation, and (2) the alternative is watching the White Sox. :-D
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