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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:17 am

Yeah I think the 1-2 of Hudson & Smoltz makes them the favorite. The offense isn't great but it is serviceable. I wouldn't be surprised if Chipper is moved back to the OF and Marte is given a shot at 3B.
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Postby slomo007 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:21 am

Pogotheostrich wrote:Yeah I think the 1-2 of Hudson & Smoltz makes them the favorite. The offense isn't great but it is serviceable. I wouldn't be surprised if Chipper is moved back to the OF and Marte is given a shot at 3B.


Chipper is REALLY against moving, he said he wants to retire at 3B. They are really in the exact situation that Florida was in with Miguel Cabrera and Mike Lowell...and look what happened there.
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Postby trevisc » Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:44 am

slomo007 wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:Yeah I think the 1-2 of Hudson & Smoltz makes them the favorite. The offense isn't great but it is serviceable. I wouldn't be surprised if Chipper is moved back to the OF and Marte is given a shot at 3B.


Chipper is REALLY against moving, he said he wants to retire at 3B. They are really in the exact situation that Florida was in with Miguel Cabrera and Mike Lowell...and look what happened there.


Chipper had his best year defensively from 3B too (9 errors i think?) so I think the Marte to RF would be more likely.
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:09 am

trevisc wrote:
slomo007 wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:Yeah I think the 1-2 of Hudson & Smoltz makes them the favorite. The offense isn't great but it is serviceable. I wouldn't be surprised if Chipper is moved back to the OF and Marte is given a shot at 3B.


Chipper is REALLY against moving, he said he wants to retire at 3B. They are really in the exact situation that Florida was in with Miguel Cabrera and Mike Lowell...and look what happened there.


Chipper had his best year defensively from 3B too (9 errors i think?) so I think the Marte to RF would be more likely.


Can't see it. The Braves (Schuerholz and Cox) favor defense - that's what they did when they won their first, went after Bream, Belliard and Pendleton - all good defensive players. Chipper reeks as a defensive 3B (BP has him as a -133 Fielding Runs Against Average (whatever that is) - the point is, that's on the Top 10 all time for worst at 3B), and Marte is allegedly above average to good. Why would they put their future stud in the OF, when he can actually play 3B well - unlike MCab? Chipper may not like it, but defensively, Marte needs to be at 3B and Chipper in the OF if Marte is starting in 2005.

Also, with Kolb being an extreme groundball pitcher (and no Ks), they'll need better infield defense in the 9th alone - another reason to have Marte and not Chipper as your 3B.

Not to mention finances - the last thing you want a rookie coming up from AA to have to do is adjust to a new position as well (playing 3B in Dominican right now). He's likely start at AAA if they moved him such that they'd need both a LF and RF at the beginning of the year.

So while you may be right, moving Marte to the OF would go against what the Braves have done for the last 14 years, so I just don't think it'll happen.
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Postby slomo007 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:12 am

Chipper wasn't bad at all defensively. Especially considering he changed mid-season and didn't have a lot of time to get the feel for it again. I think when your franchise player says jump, you say, how high?
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:29 am

slomo007 wrote:Chipper wasn't bad at all defensively. Especially considering he changed mid-season and didn't have a lot of time to get the feel for it again. I think when your franchise player says jump, you say, how high?


You may be right about 2004, but I watched him blow too many "normal" plays that cost the Braves games over the years, or not get to balls at all - especially in the playoffs, to think he'll ever be a good defensive 3B.

Now, I admit that I can't watch a player and tell from his on the field performance how good or bad someone is. I also know that not making errors doesn't mean you're a good 3B - you may have the range of a slug and don't get to balls the "average" 3B gets to. So, I rely on statistics - maybe not the best indicator, but a more objective one than me looking at players.

I don't always agree with BP, but their defensive stats have always meshed pretty well with what I've heard/read about the defensive abilities of a player. So when Chipper is ranked as one of the 10 worst all-time defensively at 3B, I tend to believe he's not good. He may not be that bad, but he is likely worse than Marte.

But you are right that he's the star and what he wants to do will carry a lot of weight. But I do think that in the future, if not in 2005, Marte will be at 3B for the Braves, whether Chipper likes it or not. As the Braves have shown with Glavine, Maddux, etc. - no player is above the team if it isn't in the best interests of the team. I can't see that starting for him.
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Postby slomo007 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:34 am

Dawgpound 1613 wrote:
slomo007 wrote:Chipper wasn't bad at all defensively. Especially considering he changed mid-season and didn't have a lot of time to get the feel for it again. I think when your franchise player says jump, you say, how high?


You may be right about 2004, but I watched him blow too many "normal" plays that cost the Braves games over the years, or not get to balls at all - especially in the playoffs, to think he'll ever be a good defensive 3B.

Now, I admit that I can't watch a player and tell from his on the field performance how good or bad someone is. I also know that not making errors doesn't mean you're a good 3B - you may have the range of a slug and don't get to balls the "average" 3B gets to. So, I rely on statistics - maybe not the best indicator, but a more objective one than me looking at players.

I don't always agree with BP, but their defensive stats have always meshed pretty well with what I've heard/read about the defensive abilities of a player. So when Chipper is ranked as one of the 10 worst all-time defensively at 3B, I tend to believe he's not good. He may not be that bad, but he is likely worse than Marte.

But you are right that he's the star and what he wants to do will carry a lot of weight. But I do think that in the future, if not in 2005, Marte will be at 3B for the Braves, whether Chipper likes it or not. As the Braves have shown with Glavine, Maddux, etc. - no player is above the team if it isn't in the best interests of the team. I can't see that starting for him.


Chipper is signed through 2006 I believe, so what would be the problem with bringing Marte up mid-season this year and having him start in RF or even let him play 3b during inter-league play with Chipper at DH. I don't think a season or whatever in RF would hurt his ability to play 3b in 2007 when Chipper will most likely be gone.

Your points were taken though, I realize stats say a lot. I think I just thought Chipper looked so good after seeing DeRosa stink it up at 3b during the first part of the year. DeRosa makes Manny look like a gold glover. O:-)
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:06 pm

slomo007 wrote:
Dawgpound 1613 wrote:
slomo007 wrote:Chipper wasn't bad at all defensively. Especially considering he changed mid-season and didn't have a lot of time to get the feel for it again. I think when your franchise player says jump, you say, how high?


You may be right about 2004, but I watched him blow too many "normal" plays that cost the Braves games over the years, or not get to balls at all - especially in the playoffs, to think he'll ever be a good defensive 3B.

Now, I admit that I can't watch a player and tell from his on the field performance how good or bad someone is. I also know that not making errors doesn't mean you're a good 3B - you may have the range of a slug and don't get to balls the "average" 3B gets to. So, I rely on statistics - maybe not the best indicator, but a more objective one than me looking at players.

I don't always agree with BP, but their defensive stats have always meshed pretty well with what I've heard/read about the defensive abilities of a player. So when Chipper is ranked as one of the 10 worst all-time defensively at 3B, I tend to believe he's not good. He may not be that bad, but he is likely worse than Marte.

But you are right that he's the star and what he wants to do will carry a lot of weight. But I do think that in the future, if not in 2005, Marte will be at 3B for the Braves, whether Chipper likes it or not. As the Braves have shown with Glavine, Maddux, etc. - no player is above the team if it isn't in the best interests of the team. I can't see that starting for him.


Chipper is signed through 2006 I believe, so what would be the problem with bringing Marte up mid-season this year and having him start in RF or even let him play 3b during inter-league play with Chipper at DH. I don't think a season or whatever in RF would hurt his ability to play 3b in 2007 when Chipper will most likely be gone.

Your points were taken though, I realize stats say a lot. I think I just thought Chipper looked so good after seeing DeRosa stink it up at 3b during the first part of the year. DeRosa makes Manny look like a gold glover. O:-)


DeRosa makes Lonnie Smith look like a gold glover as well. ;-D

And I don't know that they won't put Marte in the OF mid-year. But that still leaves them with two holes (RF and LF) until then. And it makes Marte adjust to a new position AND major league pitching at the same time - something the Braves haven't done in the past as they've generally eased their young players rather than dump them into tough situations they haven't been in before.

Heck, they could trade him for all I know. How about Chipper to LA (who need a 3B now), send Jackson and Perez to Texas (who needs good young pitching) and send Soriano to Atl and put him in the OF? Won't happen (and Soriano won't like being in the OF), but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them trade him once Marte is ready.
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Postby trevisc » Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:24 pm

Actually the Braves could trade Giles to the dodgers who could send the pitching to Texas who could send Soriano to the Braves :)
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Postby Dawgpound 1613 » Fri Dec 17, 2004 12:29 pm

trevisc wrote:Actually the Braves could trade Giles to the dodgers who could send the pitching to Texas who could send Soriano to the Braves :)


True, but I was looking for a way to dump Chipper and open a spot for Marte. Plus, they just signed Kent, and I doubt either would be that good at 3B. Plus, I like Giles, so I'd rather keep him. :-D

Again, not likely for them to do anything major.
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